[kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Tue Dec 19 12:01:40 EAT 2017

Hi Kevin,

Let me take a pragmatic angle to this discussion, a young Kenyan man was
yesterday featured on CNN for cryptocurrency mining

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/18/africa/inside-life-
cryptocurrency-miner-kenya-africa/index.html

I don't see how this proposed legislation will create a conducive ecosystem
for all future Eugines, I rest my case!

Kind regards,

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Kevin Kamonye via kictanet <
kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Chief Anyega,
>
> Actually I do some studies through the MIT that I can afford 😎.
> https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
>
> Also please clarify what about my tone? Sidebar? Call me on 0720789158? I
> like to make new friends.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> On 19 December 2017 at 10:45, anyega jefferson via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>> Kevin
>>
>> Chief,
>>
>> On a light note,
>>
>> You went to MIT or Stanford by any chance?
>>
>> Because your tone, wow.
>>
>> On Dec 19, 2017 10:42 AM, "Kevin Kamonye via kictanet" <
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>>> Good Morning Waithaka,
>>>
>>> As I respond, I will repeat that we need to wait to see the actual bill
>>> that the CS will propose. Let us at least give him the level of good faith
>>> and trust that he has earned through his record, most of which is in the
>>> public domain for everyone to see.
>>>
>>> Secondly, yes I am very cautious of government regulation. Maybe I can
>>> trust CS Mucheru and his team, but I do not know who will be in-charge
>>> tomorrow. If this regulation will have to happen, and I can tell you that
>>> if the CS says it is going to happen just start preparing yourself for the
>>> qualification interview, then I am willing to engage the ministry in a
>>> constructive manner while the window to do so is still open. Let us come up
>>> with the best possible balance that serves all.
>>>
>>> Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and
>>>> pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has
>>>> already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own
>>>> certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to
>>>> duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to
>>>> interrogate every possible certification in the market?
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not proposing any such thing. First of all who is Cisco, Juniper,
>>> Huawei? These are vendors who in this context provide training and
>>> certification for their specific products. This is good. Take these
>>> certifications to the institute, answer a few relevant questions and earn
>>> yet another certificate of approval.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, are the exams of these vendors strictly administered
>>> in such a manner that you would have complete faith in anybody holding any
>>> of their certifications? Not really unless you are talking about someone
>>> who has sat for their lab examinations. As for these other levels, google
>>> "exam dumps, actual tests, brain dumps" to have an idea of what I am
>>> talking about. I know of people whose CVs and LinkedIN profiles have
>>> certifications that exhaust the entire alphabet yet they can deliver very
>>> little.
>>>
>>> Aside from that, what if I cannot afford these foreign certifications or
>>> do not want to undertake them for one reason or the other. Who says we
>>> cannot build our own mechanism of certifying ourselves and we do it so well
>>> such that all other Africans will aspire to our standards. Or maybe even
>>> the whole world.
>>>
>>> If you are not up to the challenge of the work that would need to be put
>>> in, then let others try to do so. I am so fired up about this one to the
>>> point that if for one reason or the other the Ministry decides to cancel
>>> this bill, I will lobby in any way that I can to compel them to deliver on
>>> this institute.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> On 19 December 2017 at 02:55, Ngigi Waithaka <ngigi at at.co.ke> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kevin,
>>>>
>>>> Let us separate this into two:
>>>> 1. Products
>>>> 2. Services
>>>>
>>>> Reviewing products is a lot easier, as you got the final product, can
>>>> try the trial version and despite whoever has built it, you can then come
>>>> up with a conclusion of whether its fit for purpose.
>>>>
>>>> Now, how do you review Services? You asked how would I tell you are an
>>>> advanced Network Engineer? I'd ask for your qualifications, certifications,
>>>> experience, referrals would also shoot you questions around what I need you
>>>> to do.
>>>>
>>>> Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and
>>>> pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has
>>>> already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own
>>>> certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to
>>>> duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to
>>>> interrogate every possible certification in the market?
>>>>
>>>> And that is just Networks... Extrapolate that to Software products
>>>> which are in their thousands (Oracle, SAP, A1, MS, IBM, SAS, Redhat, HP
>>>> etc) each with its own Certifications and Requirements and you want to
>>>> pre-qualify people for that as well?
>>>>
>>>> Add Software Development, more than 30 possible languages we develop
>>>> in, each with more than 30 levels of different knowledge levels /
>>>> permutations and you want to pre-qualify that as well?
>>>>
>>>> Unless this is where our projected 1million jobs will come from, I
>>>> really don't see anyone in Kenya and even globally with such resources and
>>>> time to undertake such an exercise and one that wouldn't add any value
>>>> beyond whats currently generally available in the market.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Kevin Kamonye <kevin.kamonye at gmail.com
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Waithaka,
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps let us not judge that the proposed bill by the CS to be a duck
>>>>> before we have even seen or heard from it. Also, the only reason why I am
>>>>> entertaining this bill is that unlike the previous one, is that we are
>>>>> being invited to put forward constructive proposals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry?
>>>>>> 1. Programmers / developers
>>>>>> 2. System Administrators
>>>>>> 3. Database Administrators
>>>>>> 4. Enterprise Architects
>>>>>> 5. UX Designers
>>>>>> Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible
>>>>>> hundreds...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we are talking about a peer reviewed process by committees of
>>>>> technologists from varied backgrounds then establishing whether a person is
>>>>> qualified to undertake the tasks that they claim proficiency in would be a
>>>>> walk in the park.
>>>>>
>>>>> For instance, if you came to me and claimed to be a network engineer /
>>>>> system admin I would be able to ask you a few pertinent questions that
>>>>> would settle the matter very quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>> If beyond that you wanted to claim that you are advanced/expert/arch
>>>>> level, then that would be between you and your prospective employer
>>>>> (broadly used to cover contract/consultancy services). You would need to
>>>>> provide them with the relevant certifications from the various vendors.
>>>>>
>>>>> In lieu of this, it will either be up to you to do some social
>>>>> networking and get the recommendation of a certified person at that level
>>>>> or even better and as happens currently, you will have to be individually
>>>>> interviewed by the client's trusted technologist who would ask you for your
>>>>> portfolio and recommendations from other related work. They could further
>>>>> protect themselves by withholding your payment until you have delivered on
>>>>> their requirements, with the the further option of lodging a complaint
>>>>> against you from this body that will be established.
>>>>>
>>>>> For new concepts that would be cutting edge, then the current
>>>>> principle remains valid. Patent your idea then work towards demonstrating
>>>>> its usefulness and the proposed applications and a well formed team of
>>>>> technologists will give you the support and approval that you need.
>>>>>
>>>>> There could also be an appeals mechanism within the proposal where the
>>>>> entire community could be lobbied for support. A Reddit type of system
>>>>> could be used to upvote consensus.
>>>>>
>>>>> If all fails then take yourself to a jurisdiction/community that gets
>>>>> you and let those that put you down burn in the glare of your success.
>>>>>
>>>>> AS FOR THOSE SAYING THAT THIS WILL STIFLE NEW TECHNOLOGY. HOW DO YOU
>>>>> EXPECT SOMEONE TO DEVELOP CUTTING EDGE TECH IF THEY CANNOT EVEN DEMONSTRATE
>>>>> BASIC ICT COMPETENCY FROM ANY OF THE MANY FIELDS THAT ALREADY EXIST?!
>>>>>
>>>>> You would never be able to code/develop that new thingamajig if you
>>>>> cannot even show the ability to put something reasonable from what exists
>>>>> currently. And remember that we are talking about those who do not have any
>>>>> currently recognizable documentation to support your proficiency (this is
>>>>> my assumption until I can see the final proposed bill).
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18 December 2017 at 17:58, Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet <
>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My take,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some things are just ridiculous..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an
>>>>>> IP Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for:
>>>>>> a)A banks IT department
>>>>>> b) An insurance firms IT department
>>>>>> c) A manufacturing firm IT department
>>>>>> d) An IT consulting business
>>>>>> e)A software engineering firm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Give me one set of laws regulating them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats
>>>>>> why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc,
>>>>>> Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses
>>>>>> he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or
>>>>>> experience etc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services
>>>>>> delivered!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software
>>>>>> industry?
>>>>>> 1. Programmers / developers
>>>>>> 2. System Administrators
>>>>>> 3. Database Administrators
>>>>>> 4. Enterprise Architects
>>>>>> 5. UX Designers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible
>>>>>> hundreds...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at
>>>>>> some point than science, so how do you regulate art?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an
>>>>>> painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a
>>>>>> singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he
>>>>>> wasn't certified in computer science?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet <
>>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>>>>> <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> kictanet mailing list
>>>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>>>>>>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>>>>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet
>>>>>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>>>>>>> ailman/options/kictanet/ngigi%40at.co.ke
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>>>>>>> platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy
>>>>>>> and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>>>>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable
>>>>>>> behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>>>>>>> bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect
>>>>>>> privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *Regards,*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Wait**haka Ngigi*
>>>>>> Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod
>>>>>> Building
>>>>>> T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811
>>>>>> 000
>>>>>> www.at.co.ke
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> kictanet mailing list
>>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>>>>>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>>>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet
>>>>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>>>>>> ailman/options/kictanet/kevin.kamonye%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>>>>>> platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy
>>>>>> and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>>>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable
>>>>>> behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>>>>>> bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect
>>>>>> privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Regards,*
>>>>
>>>> *Wait**haka Ngigi*
>>>> Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod
>>>> Building
>>>> T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000
>>>> www.at.co.ke
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> kictanet mailing list
>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet
>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>>> ailman/options/kictanet/jeffersonanyega%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>
>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kictanet mailing list
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet
>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
>>
>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>> ailman/options/kictanet/kevin.kamonye%40gmail.com
>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kictanet mailing list
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet
> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
>
> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/
> mailman/options/kictanet/chemukoechk%40gmail.com
>
> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>
> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>
>

-- 
Rosemary Koech-Kimwatu
Advocate
Legal and Regulatory Specialist- Oxygene MCL
Tel: +254 718 181644
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/pipermail/kictanet/attachments/20171219/7015b300/attachment.htm>