[kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Tue Dec 19 10:53:58 EAT 2017

Chief Anyega,

Actually I do some studies through the MIT that I can afford 😎.
https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

Also please clarify what about my tone? Sidebar? Call me on 0720789158? I
like to make new friends.

Regards,

Kevin

On 19 December 2017 at 10:45, anyega jefferson via kictanet <
kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Kevin
>
> Chief,
>
> On a light note,
>
> You went to MIT or Stanford by any chance?
>
> Because your tone, wow.
>
> On Dec 19, 2017 10:42 AM, "Kevin Kamonye via kictanet" <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>> Good Morning Waithaka,
>>
>> As I respond, I will repeat that we need to wait to see the actual bill
>> that the CS will propose. Let us at least give him the level of good faith
>> and trust that he has earned through his record, most of which is in the
>> public domain for everyone to see.
>>
>> Secondly, yes I am very cautious of government regulation. Maybe I can
>> trust CS Mucheru and his team, but I do not know who will be in-charge
>> tomorrow. If this regulation will have to happen, and I can tell you that
>> if the CS says it is going to happen just start preparing yourself for the
>> qualification interview, then I am willing to engage the ministry in a
>> constructive manner while the window to do so is still open. Let us come up
>> with the best possible balance that serves all.
>>
>> Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and
>>> pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has
>>> already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own
>>> certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to
>>> duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to
>>> interrogate every possible certification in the market?
>>
>>
>> I am not proposing any such thing. First of all who is Cisco, Juniper,
>> Huawei? These are vendors who in this context provide training and
>> certification for their specific products. This is good. Take these
>> certifications to the institute, answer a few relevant questions and earn
>> yet another certificate of approval.
>>
>> On the other hand, are the exams of these vendors strictly administered
>> in such a manner that you would have complete faith in anybody holding any
>> of their certifications? Not really unless you are talking about someone
>> who has sat for their lab examinations. As for these other levels, google
>> "exam dumps, actual tests, brain dumps" to have an idea of what I am
>> talking about. I know of people whose CVs and LinkedIN profiles have
>> certifications that exhaust the entire alphabet yet they can deliver very
>> little.
>>
>> Aside from that, what if I cannot afford these foreign certifications or
>> do not want to undertake them for one reason or the other. Who says we
>> cannot build our own mechanism of certifying ourselves and we do it so well
>> such that all other Africans will aspire to our standards. Or maybe even
>> the whole world.
>>
>> If you are not up to the challenge of the work that would need to be put
>> in, then let others try to do so. I am so fired up about this one to the
>> point that if for one reason or the other the Ministry decides to cancel
>> this bill, I will lobby in any way that I can to compel them to deliver on
>> this institute.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> On 19 December 2017 at 02:55, Ngigi Waithaka <ngigi at at.co.ke> wrote:
>>
>>> Kevin,
>>>
>>> Let us separate this into two:
>>> 1. Products
>>> 2. Services
>>>
>>> Reviewing products is a lot easier, as you got the final product, can
>>> try the trial version and despite whoever has built it, you can then come
>>> up with a conclusion of whether its fit for purpose.
>>>
>>> Now, how do you review Services? You asked how would I tell you are an
>>> advanced Network Engineer? I'd ask for your qualifications, certifications,
>>> experience, referrals would also shoot you questions around what I need you
>>> to do.
>>>
>>> Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and
>>> pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has
>>> already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own
>>> certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to
>>> duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to
>>> interrogate every possible certification in the market?
>>>
>>> And that is just Networks... Extrapolate that to Software products which
>>> are in their thousands (Oracle, SAP, A1, MS, IBM, SAS, Redhat, HP etc) each
>>> with its own Certifications and Requirements and you want to pre-qualify
>>> people for that as well?
>>>
>>> Add Software Development, more than 30 possible languages we develop in,
>>> each with more than 30 levels of different knowledge levels / permutations
>>> and you want to pre-qualify that as well?
>>>
>>> Unless this is where our projected 1million jobs will come from, I
>>> really don't see anyone in Kenya and even globally with such resources and
>>> time to undertake such an exercise and one that wouldn't add any value
>>> beyond whats currently generally available in the market.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Kevin Kamonye <kevin.kamonye at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Waithaka,
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps let us not judge that the proposed bill by the CS to be a duck
>>>> before we have even seen or heard from it. Also, the only reason why I am
>>>> entertaining this bill is that unlike the previous one, is that we are
>>>> being invited to put forward constructive proposals.
>>>>
>>>> Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry?
>>>>> 1. Programmers / developers
>>>>> 2. System Administrators
>>>>> 3. Database Administrators
>>>>> 4. Enterprise Architects
>>>>> 5. UX Designers
>>>>> Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible
>>>>> hundreds...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we are talking about a peer reviewed process by committees of
>>>> technologists from varied backgrounds then establishing whether a person is
>>>> qualified to undertake the tasks that they claim proficiency in would be a
>>>> walk in the park.
>>>>
>>>> For instance, if you came to me and claimed to be a network engineer /
>>>> system admin I would be able to ask you a few pertinent questions that
>>>> would settle the matter very quickly.
>>>>
>>>> If beyond that you wanted to claim that you are advanced/expert/arch
>>>> level, then that would be between you and your prospective employer
>>>> (broadly used to cover contract/consultancy services). You would need to
>>>> provide them with the relevant certifications from the various vendors.
>>>>
>>>> In lieu of this, it will either be up to you to do some social
>>>> networking and get the recommendation of a certified person at that level
>>>> or even better and as happens currently, you will have to be individually
>>>> interviewed by the client's trusted technologist who would ask you for your
>>>> portfolio and recommendations from other related work. They could further
>>>> protect themselves by withholding your payment until you have delivered on
>>>> their requirements, with the the further option of lodging a complaint
>>>> against you from this body that will be established.
>>>>
>>>> For new concepts that would be cutting edge, then the current principle
>>>> remains valid. Patent your idea then work towards demonstrating its
>>>> usefulness and the proposed applications and a well formed team of
>>>> technologists will give you the support and approval that you need.
>>>>
>>>> There could also be an appeals mechanism within the proposal where the
>>>> entire community could be lobbied for support. A Reddit type of system
>>>> could be used to upvote consensus.
>>>>
>>>> If all fails then take yourself to a jurisdiction/community that gets
>>>> you and let those that put you down burn in the glare of your success.
>>>>
>>>> AS FOR THOSE SAYING THAT THIS WILL STIFLE NEW TECHNOLOGY. HOW DO YOU
>>>> EXPECT SOMEONE TO DEVELOP CUTTING EDGE TECH IF THEY CANNOT EVEN DEMONSTRATE
>>>> BASIC ICT COMPETENCY FROM ANY OF THE MANY FIELDS THAT ALREADY EXIST?!
>>>>
>>>> You would never be able to code/develop that new thingamajig if you
>>>> cannot even show the ability to put something reasonable from what exists
>>>> currently. And remember that we are talking about those who do not have any
>>>> currently recognizable documentation to support your proficiency (this is
>>>> my assumption until I can see the final proposed bill).
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Kevin
>>>>
>>>> On 18 December 2017 at 17:58, Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet <
>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My take,
>>>>>
>>>>> Some things are just ridiculous..
>>>>>
>>>>> You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an IP
>>>>> Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for:
>>>>> a)A banks IT department
>>>>> b) An insurance firms IT department
>>>>> c) A manufacturing firm IT department
>>>>> d) An IT consulting business
>>>>> e)A software engineering firm
>>>>>
>>>>> Give me one set of laws regulating them?
>>>>>
>>>>> You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats
>>>>> why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc,
>>>>> Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses
>>>>> he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or
>>>>> experience etc
>>>>>
>>>>> In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services
>>>>> delivered!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry?
>>>>> 1. Programmers / developers
>>>>> 2. System Administrators
>>>>> 3. Database Administrators
>>>>> 4. Enterprise Architects
>>>>> 5. UX Designers
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible
>>>>> hundreds...
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at some
>>>>> point than science, so how do you regulate art?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an
>>>>> painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a
>>>>> singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he
>>>>> wasn't certified in computer science?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet <
>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>>>> <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> ailman/options/kictanet/ngigi%40at.co.ke
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>>>>>> platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy
>>>>>> and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>>>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Regards,*
>>>>>
>>>>> *Wait**haka Ngigi*
>>>>> Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod
>>>>> Building
>>>>> T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811
>>>>> 000
>>>>> www.at.co.ke
>>>>>
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>>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>>>>> ailman/options/kictanet/kevin.kamonye%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>>>>> platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy
>>>>> and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>>>
>>>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>>>>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>>>>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>>>>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Regards,*
>>>
>>> *Wait**haka Ngigi*
>>> Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod
>>> Building
>>> T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000
>>> www.at.co.ke
>>>
>>
>>
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>> ailman/options/kictanet/jeffersonanyega%40gmail.com
>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>
>>
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> mailman/options/kictanet/kevin.kamonye%40gmail.com
>
> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>
> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>
>
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