[kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Tue Dec 19 12:16:51 EAT 2017

Hi Rosemary,

I can see you have a legal background and I would be very keen to listen to
your analysis.

Do you have the current draft bill?

Please share the document, and even better share it with your annotations
and arguments against the contentious parts.

Regards,

Kevin

On 19 December 2017 at 12:01, Rosemary Koech-Kimwatu <chemukoechk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
>
> Let me take a pragmatic angle to this discussion, a young Kenyan man was
> yesterday featured on CNN for cryptocurrency mining
>
> http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/18/africa/inside-life-cryptoc
> urrency-miner-kenya-africa/index.html
>
> I don't see how this proposed legislation will create a conducive
> ecosystem for all future Eugines, I rest my case!
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Kevin Kamonye via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>> Chief Anyega,
>>
>> Actually I do some studies through the MIT that I can afford 😎.
>> https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
>>
>> Also please clarify what about my tone? Sidebar? Call me on 0720789158? I
>> like to make new friends.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> On 19 December 2017 at 10:45, anyega jefferson via kictanet <
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> Chief,
>>>
>>> On a light note,
>>>
>>> You went to MIT or Stanford by any chance?
>>>
>>> Because your tone, wow.
>>>
>>> On Dec 19, 2017 10:42 AM, "Kevin Kamonye via kictanet" <
>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good Morning Waithaka,
>>>>
>>>> As I respond, I will repeat that we need to wait to see the actual bill
>>>> that the CS will propose. Let us at least give him the level of good faith
>>>> and trust that he has earned through his record, most of which is in the
>>>> public domain for everyone to see.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, yes I am very cautious of government regulation. Maybe I can
>>>> trust CS Mucheru and his team, but I do not know who will be in-charge
>>>> tomorrow. If this regulation will have to happen, and I can tell you that
>>>> if the CS says it is going to happen just start preparing yourself for the
>>>> qualification interview, then I am willing to engage the ministry in a
>>>> constructive manner while the window to do so is still open. Let us come up
>>>> with the best possible balance that serves all.
>>>>
>>>> Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and
>>>>> pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has
>>>>> already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own
>>>>> certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to
>>>>> duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to
>>>>> interrogate every possible certification in the market?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not proposing any such thing. First of all who is Cisco, Juniper,
>>>> Huawei? These are vendors who in this context provide training and
>>>> certification for their specific products. This is good. Take these
>>>> certifications to the institute, answer a few relevant questions and earn
>>>> yet another certificate of approval.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, are the exams of these vendors strictly administered
>>>> in such a manner that you would have complete faith in anybody holding any
>>>> of their certifications? Not really unless you are talking about someone
>>>> who has sat for their lab examinations. As for these other levels, google
>>>> "exam dumps, actual tests, brain dumps" to have an idea of what I am
>>>> talking about. I know of people whose CVs and LinkedIN profiles have
>>>> certifications that exhaust the entire alphabet yet they can deliver very
>>>> little.
>>>>
>>>> Aside from that, what if I cannot afford these foreign certifications
>>>> or do not want to undertake them for one reason or the other. Who says we
>>>> cannot build our own mechanism of certifying ourselves and we do it so well
>>>> such that all other Africans will aspire to our standards. Or maybe even
>>>> the whole world.
>>>>
>>>> If you are not up to the challenge of the work that would need to be
>>>> put in, then let others try to do so. I am so fired up about this one to
>>>> the point that if for one reason or the other the Ministry decides to
>>>> cancel this bill, I will lobby in any way that I can to compel them to
>>>> deliver on this institute.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Kevin
>>>>
>>>> On 19 December 2017 at 02:55, Ngigi Waithaka <ngigi at at.co.ke> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kevin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Let us separate this into two:
>>>>> 1. Products
>>>>> 2. Services
>>>>>
>>>>> Reviewing products is a lot easier, as you got the final product, can
>>>>> try the trial version and despite whoever has built it, you can then come
>>>>> up with a conclusion of whether its fit for purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, how do you review Services? You asked how would I tell you are an
>>>>> advanced Network Engineer? I'd ask for your qualifications, certifications,
>>>>> experience, referrals would also shoot you questions around what I need you
>>>>> to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and
>>>>> pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has
>>>>> already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own
>>>>> certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to
>>>>> duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to
>>>>> interrogate every possible certification in the market?
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is just Networks... Extrapolate that to Software products
>>>>> which are in their thousands (Oracle, SAP, A1, MS, IBM, SAS, Redhat, HP
>>>>> etc) each with its own Certifications and Requirements and you want to
>>>>> pre-qualify people for that as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> Add Software Development, more than 30 possible languages we develop
>>>>> in, each with more than 30 levels of different knowledge levels /
>>>>> permutations and you want to pre-qualify that as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless this is where our projected 1million jobs will come from, I
>>>>> really don't see anyone in Kenya and even globally with such resources and
>>>>> time to undertake such an exercise and one that wouldn't add any value
>>>>> beyond whats currently generally available in the market.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Kevin Kamonye <
>>>>> kevin.kamonye at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Waithaka,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps let us not judge that the proposed bill by the CS to be a
>>>>>> duck before we have even seen or heard from it. Also, the only reason why I
>>>>>> am entertaining this bill is that unlike the previous one, is that we are
>>>>>> being invited to put forward constructive proposals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software
>>>>>>> industry?
>>>>>>> 1. Programmers / developers
>>>>>>> 2. System Administrators
>>>>>>> 3. Database Administrators
>>>>>>> 4. Enterprise Architects
>>>>>>> 5. UX Designers
>>>>>>> Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible
>>>>>>> hundreds...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we are talking about a peer reviewed process by committees of
>>>>>> technologists from varied backgrounds then establishing whether a person is
>>>>>> qualified to undertake the tasks that they claim proficiency in would be a
>>>>>> walk in the park.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For instance, if you came to me and claimed to be a network engineer
>>>>>> / system admin I would be able to ask you a few pertinent questions that
>>>>>> would settle the matter very quickly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If beyond that you wanted to claim that you are advanced/expert/arch
>>>>>> level, then that would be between you and your prospective employer
>>>>>> (broadly used to cover contract/consultancy services). You would need to
>>>>>> provide them with the relevant certifications from the various vendors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In lieu of this, it will either be up to you to do some social
>>>>>> networking and get the recommendation of a certified person at that level
>>>>>> or even better and as happens currently, you will have to be individually
>>>>>> interviewed by the client's trusted technologist who would ask you for your
>>>>>> portfolio and recommendations from other related work. They could further
>>>>>> protect themselves by withholding your payment until you have delivered on
>>>>>> their requirements, with the the further option of lodging a complaint
>>>>>> against you from this body that will be established.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For new concepts that would be cutting edge, then the current
>>>>>> principle remains valid. Patent your idea then work towards demonstrating
>>>>>> its usefulness and the proposed applications and a well formed team of
>>>>>> technologists will give you the support and approval that you need.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There could also be an appeals mechanism within the proposal where
>>>>>> the entire community could be lobbied for support. A Reddit type of system
>>>>>> could be used to upvote consensus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If all fails then take yourself to a jurisdiction/community that gets
>>>>>> you and let those that put you down burn in the glare of your success.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AS FOR THOSE SAYING THAT THIS WILL STIFLE NEW TECHNOLOGY. HOW DO YOU
>>>>>> EXPECT SOMEONE TO DEVELOP CUTTING EDGE TECH IF THEY CANNOT EVEN DEMONSTRATE
>>>>>> BASIC ICT COMPETENCY FROM ANY OF THE MANY FIELDS THAT ALREADY EXIST?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You would never be able to code/develop that new thingamajig if you
>>>>>> cannot even show the ability to put something reasonable from what exists
>>>>>> currently. And remember that we are talking about those who do not have any
>>>>>> currently recognizable documentation to support your proficiency (this is
>>>>>> my assumption until I can see the final proposed bill).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18 December 2017 at 17:58, Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet <
>>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My take,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some things are just ridiculous..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an
>>>>>>> IP Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for:
>>>>>>> a)A banks IT department
>>>>>>> b) An insurance firms IT department
>>>>>>> c) A manufacturing firm IT department
>>>>>>> d) An IT consulting business
>>>>>>> e)A software engineering firm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Give me one set of laws regulating them?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats
>>>>>>> why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc,
>>>>>>> Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses
>>>>>>> he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or
>>>>>>> experience etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services
>>>>>>> delivered!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software
>>>>>>> industry?
>>>>>>> 1. Programmers / developers
>>>>>>> 2. System Administrators
>>>>>>> 3. Database Administrators
>>>>>>> 4. Enterprise Architects
>>>>>>> 5. UX Designers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible
>>>>>>> hundreds...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at
>>>>>>> some point than science, so how do you regulate art?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an
>>>>>>> painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a
>>>>>>> singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he
>>>>>>> wasn't certified in computer science?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet <
>>>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>>>>>> <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> 40at.co.ke
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>>>>>>>> platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy
>>>>>>>> and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>>>>>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable
>>>>>>>> behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>>>>>>>> bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect
>>>>>>>> privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> *Regards,*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Wait**haka Ngigi*
>>>>>>> Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod
>>>>>>> Building
>>>>>>> T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811
>>>>>>> 000
>>>>>>> www.at.co.ke
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> kictanet mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>>>>>>> ailman/options/kictanet/kevin.kamonye%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>>>>>>> platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy
>>>>>>> and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>>>>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable
>>>>>>> behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>>>>>>> bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect
>>>>>>> privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Regards,*
>>>>>
>>>>> *Wait**haka Ngigi*
>>>>> Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod
>>>>> Building
>>>>> T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811
>>>>> 000
>>>>> www.at.co.ke
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> kictanet mailing list
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>>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>>>> ailman/options/kictanet/jeffersonanyega%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>>>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>>>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>>
>>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>>>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>>>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>>>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> kictanet mailing list
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>>>
>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>>> ailman/options/kictanet/kevin.kamonye%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>>
>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kictanet mailing list
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet
>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
>>
>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m
>> ailman/options/kictanet/chemukoechk%40gmail.com
>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rosemary Koech-Kimwatu
> Advocate
> Legal and Regulatory Specialist- Oxygene MCL
> Tel: +254 718 181644
>
>
>
>
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