[kictanet] Why Bill Gates would tax robots

Wed Mar 1 14:34:58 EAT 2017

Well said Ahmed,

Regards

On 3/1/17, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet
<kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
> Hello Wangari,
>
> The point that you mention about automation taking over manual labor
> (causing unemployment) needs to be a bit more investigated. From what we
> can see - countries with high amounts of automation tend to have less
> unemployment levels than countries that have no as much automation in
> processes. The reason for this being that automation brings about more
> efficiency, allowing more to be done in less time. Which counters
> unemployment because the more an economy does the faster it grows and the
> more specialized labor is needed.
>
> So automation is good. But taxing a robot like a human being assumes we
> paid the robot a salary in the first place. Where the tax should be focused
> is instead on things like Duty, VAT and other taxes associated with buying
> and maintaining gadgets (which includes service contracts with companies
> meant to do that instead).
>
> The labor item managing the robot is the one already paying their PAYE.
> Next thing youd know is youd be told to pay PAYE on your laptop.
>
> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 10:57 AM, WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>> Blessed Wednesday!
>>
>> Thank you for the insights and discussions!
>>
>> What I am hearing Barrack from Erick is that "Who is the master of who?
>> Technology without humanity is dead....and I guess it is the humanity to
>> be
>> dead..."
>>
>> Mildred - what a piece ..."Oxford University researchers have estimated
>> that 47 percent of U.S. jobs could be automated within the next two
>> decades..."
>>
>> Kivuva - From you drift, I wonder whether Bill Gates is alluding to the
>> fact that there could be too much of this technology thing.
>>
>> Locally, we have not even gotten into the AI-driven economy yet and its
>> impact and we already have unemployment, underemployment not to mention
>> the
>> youth employment crisis.
>>
>> What is of greater concern is that most employees are not even aware of
>> this future so as to take up personal initiative for their careers.
>> Yes, we have seen paralysis of operations by employees about to be made
>> redundant such as in farms that want to mechanise and replace the people.
>>
>> Which employers are these locally who are reskilling and reassigning
>> their
>> people as they adopt the technologies. They would be interesting cases
>> since what is publicised is the redundancies of eg digital banks...soon
>> digital hospitals, digital schools etc.
>>
>> Human labour has been a national revenue point vide taxes. I believe the
>> developments point towards how a country like Kenya will fund to run
>> itself
>> and provide public services through innovative perhaps unthought of
>> revenue
>> avenues.
>>
>> On the other hand, national labour agencies should be in a position to
>> proactively share information to direct talent towards the future
>> careers.
>>
>> Have a blessed day.
>>
>> Regards/Wangari
>> ---
>> Pray God Bless. 2013Wangari circa - "Being of the Light, We are Restored
>> Through Faith in Mind, Body and Spirit; We Manifest The Kingdom of God on
>> Earth".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, 1 March 2017, 10:27, Eric M K Osiakwan via kictanet <
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The other day, my buddy David Pearson and I visited his mentor Bob Doyle
>> who is an information philosopher
>> <http://www.informationphilosopher.com/about/> (has become my friend as
>> well) and his son Jeremy in their VR studio and after playing with the
>> toys
>> we sat to discuss VR, AI, AR and Robots and in that convo Bob postulated
>> that Robots “could” develop their own free will - that scared the hell
>> out
>> of me and for the rest of that afternoon I would dwell on that thought
>> deep
>> into my sleep that night.
>>
>> Robots are currently slaves to humans but we know that robots have better
>> eyesight, can work longer and better hours etc than humans so the import
>> of
>> Bob's postulation is that when (not if) Robots develop "free will” the
>> master servant relationship would switch where we humans would become
>> slaves to robots - I woke up the following day with this thought then it
>> became clear to me why Elon Musk is worried that his friend Larry Page
>> could destroy human kind and in the book “Elon Musk” by Ashlee Vanee,
>> page
>> 3 (Elon’s World) I quote “…He opened up about the major fear keeping him
>> up
>> at night: namely that Google cofounder and CEO Larry Page might well have
>> been building a fleet of AI-enhanced robots capable of destroying
>> mankind.
>> “I’m really worried about this, “ Musk said….” - I have also being
>> worried
>> since.
>>
>> Eric here
>>
>>
>> Eric M.K Osiakwan
>>  "Accraboy" 4 Skype
>> @eosiakwan 4 Twitter
>>  www.ericosiakwan.com
>> +233244386792 <+233%2024%20438%206792> 4 WhatsApp
>>
>> On Mar 1, 2017, at 1:39 AM, Admin CampusCiti via kictanet <
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> Surgeons are finding it a lot easier to do surgery today using robots...
>>
>> *Ali Hussein*
>> *Hussein & Associates*
>> +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> / 0770906375
>>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>> Skype: abu-jomo
>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>> <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
>> Blog: www.alyhussein.com
>>
>> "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking
>> what no one else has thought".  ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 1 Mar 2017, at 8:21 AM, awatila--- via kictanet <
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>> Can a robot really take a doctors job?
>>
>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>
>> *From: *Mildred Achoch via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, March 1, 2017 6:53 AM
>> *To: *awatila at yahoo.co.uk
>> *Cc: *Mildred Achoch <mildandred at gmail.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [kictanet] Why Bill Gates would tax robots
>>
>> In a related topic, here are the 5 jobs robots will take first:
>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/5-jobs-robots-take-
>> first-shelly-palmer?trk=eml-email_feed_ecosystem_digest_
>> 01-hero-0-null&midToken=AQFVkI2BeqJI7g&fromEmail=
>> fromEmail&ut=1P1hcNFzkBwnE1
>> Regards,
>> Mildred Achoch.
>>
>> Check out the Rock 'n' roll film festival, Kenya TV Channel!
>> http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet <
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>> I have a couple of concerns about this specific issue:
>>
>>    1. Firstly, robots do not do everything a person does. That said that
>>    is why robots are "assisted" by human elements. The robots are only an
>>    extension of the human function to make it "more efficient". In most
>> cases
>>    a robot is specialized in one specific line item duty. If they are
>> placing
>>    a wheel on a car in the plant they don't place a wheel on a car and go
>> on
>>    to record it in a book somewhere. They do just that. They did not go
>> to
>>    school to learn manufacturing processes.
>>    2. Secondly, what would be termed as a robot (without abusing the
>>    term). Is my WiFi modem a robot? Is my blender a robot? Is my car also
>> a
>>    robot??
>>    3. Thirdly, are robots employed or purchased? (I thought VAT on buying
>>    and maintaining robots was already a thing)
>>
>> Not entirely for this idea for sure.
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Admin CampusCiti via kictanet <
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>> No doubt. That we need to ensure that we hold our government to account
>> on
>> how they spend our taxes and wherever we can we need to chip in and help
>> the disadvantaged. We should be our brothers' and sisters' keepers.
>> *Ali Hussein*
>> *Hussein & Associates*
>> +254 0713 601113 / 0770906375
>>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>> Skype: abu-jomo
>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>> Blog: www.alyhussein.com
>>
>> "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking
>> what no one else has thought".  ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 28 Feb 2017, at 4:54 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva <Kivuva at transworldafrica.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> That is true Ali. Human will have to develop skills needed in this
>> evolving society. But we should remember in every society, there still
>> will
>> be the F student. There will be the elderly, and most importantly, the
>> peasants. Those with skills will prosper. But we need social nets for the
>> disadvantaged, and those who life has served them only lemons. This
>> category will always be there in every society
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2017 3:49 PM, "Admin CampusCiti" <info at campusciti.com> wrote:
>>
>> We also need to consider the fact that humans need to upscale their
>> competencies to enable us to live in this Information and data driven
>> world. Going forward we will see more and more skilled workers stepping
>> up
>> to do more important work higher the value chain.
>>
>> In the scheme of things we tend to forget this important aspect. AI, MI
>> etc are human instigated and human will remain at the top of the food
>> chain.
>>
>> *Ali Hussein*
>> *Hussein & Associates*
>> +254 0713 601113 / 0770906375
>>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>> Skype: abu-jomo
>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>> Blog: www.alyhussein.com
>>
>> "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking
>> what no one else has thought".  ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 28 Feb 2017, at 3:06 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet <
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>> Your point is very good Mark Elkins.
>>
>> I think Bill Gates is trying to simulate such a debate ... on what is
>> the role of humans in an automated, mechanized, and robotized society.
>> Traditionally, human labour has been considered as a factor of
>> production. If we declare millions of human labour redundant, and
>> there are no security measure build around it, where will humans go?
>> How will they earn their food, education, healthcare, and shelter?
>> Taxation is such a measure that build social security net around
>> humanity. So that the robots can produce, and the enterprises pay
>> government for upkeep of it's people, instead of hoarding the end
>> products of robots in vaults, and other forms of securities.
>> ______________________
>> Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya
>> twitter.com/lordmwesh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28 February 2017 at 15:46, Mark Elkins via kictanet
>> <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>> I do agree though that if automation removed the jobs of existing people,
>>
>> they should be somehow compensated - either moved to a new job internally
>> or
>>
>> re-trained or something positive. Usually with automation, the company
>> can
>>
>> be expanded (make more profit) - which should mean more human staff.
>> That
>>
>> would be the ethical thing to do. I don't see this as a tax though.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28/02/2017 13:33, Mark Elkins via kictanet wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> This is probably the best reply so far!
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, a robot is a tool. This could be my coffee maker making a cup
>> of
>>
>> freshly ground coffee rather than a human taking the beans, grounding
>> them
>>
>> with stones, adding them to boiling water - etc... all by hand. Agh.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28/02/2017 11:19, awatila--- via kictanet wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I think in the discussion the original purpose of taxation is forgotten.
>>
>>
>>
>> A human being pays tax to the government to cover the cost of the common
>>
>> services provided by the government.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What are this services that the robot will be consuming from the
>> government
>>
>> that they need to pay for?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mark Kipyegon via kictanet
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 12:06 PM
>>
>> To: awatila at yahoo.co.uk
>>
>> Cc: Mark Kipyegon
>>
>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Why Bill Gates would tax robots
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> During the Industrial Revolution, critics of mechanisation would use
>> similar
>>
>> arguments. Advances in technology should be embraced.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28 Feb 2017, at 10:25, "kictanet-request at lists.kictanet.or.ke"
>>
>> <kictanet-request at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Message: 3
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 10:21:47 +0300
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Job Muriuki <muriukin at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> To: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Why Bill Gates would tax robots
>>
>>
>>
>> Message-ID:
>>
>>
>>
>>   <CAJ+RKRbKRsadcYewDv-zEiAN0dpVKryxHye64aUc0FSB5toOkA at mail.gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Barrack,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am in business and I know it's the bottom line that counts at the expense
>>
>>
>>
>> of people.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now we further what to fire the already strained employee replace them
>>
>> with
>>
>>
>>
>> a robot
>>
>>
>>
>> for a fatter bank account and cash you don't need.
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe Bill Gates been the billionaire he is has realised you can have
>>
>>
>>
>> all the cash
>>
>>
>>
>> and wealth you can get but it all without meaning what really matters is
>>
>>
>>
>> the humanity.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
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>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
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>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
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>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
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>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
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>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/
>> mailman/options/kictanet/wangarikabiru%40yahoo.co.uk
>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>> bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kictanet mailing list
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>>
>> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/
>> mailman/options/kictanet/ultimateprogramer%40gmail.com
>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>> bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Ahmed Maawy*
> Principal Product Management Specialist - Al Jazeera Media Network
> Skype: ultimateprogramer
>

-- 
Barrack O. Otieno
+254721325277
+254733206359
Skype: barrack.otieno
PGP ID: 0x2611D86A