[kictanet] Why Bill Gates would tax robots

Wed Mar 1 14:05:24 EAT 2017

Hello Wangari,

The point that you mention about automation taking over manual labor
(causing unemployment) needs to be a bit more investigated. From what we
can see - countries with high amounts of automation tend to have less
unemployment levels than countries that have no as much automation in
processes. The reason for this being that automation brings about more
efficiency, allowing more to be done in less time. Which counters
unemployment because the more an economy does the faster it grows and the
more specialized labor is needed.

So automation is good. But taxing a robot like a human being assumes we
paid the robot a salary in the first place. Where the tax should be focused
is instead on things like Duty, VAT and other taxes associated with buying
and maintaining gadgets (which includes service contracts with companies
meant to do that instead).

The labor item managing the robot is the one already paying their PAYE.
Next thing youd know is youd be told to pay PAYE on your laptop.

On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 10:57 AM, WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet <
kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Blessed Wednesday!
>
> Thank you for the insights and discussions!
>
> What I am hearing Barrack from Erick is that "Who is the master of who?
> Technology without humanity is dead....and I guess it is the humanity to be
> dead..."
>
> Mildred - what a piece ..."Oxford University researchers have estimated
> that 47 percent of U.S. jobs could be automated within the next two
> decades..."
>
> Kivuva - From you drift, I wonder whether Bill Gates is alluding to the
> fact that there could be too much of this technology thing.
>
> Locally, we have not even gotten into the AI-driven economy yet and its
> impact and we already have unemployment, underemployment not to mention the
> youth employment crisis.
>
> What is of greater concern is that most employees are not even aware of
> this future so as to take up personal initiative for their careers.
> Yes, we have seen paralysis of operations by employees about to be made
> redundant such as in farms that want to mechanise and replace the people.
>
> Which employers are these locally who are reskilling and reassigning their
> people as they adopt the technologies. They would be interesting cases
> since what is publicised is the redundancies of eg digital banks...soon
> digital hospitals, digital schools etc.
>
> Human labour has been a national revenue point vide taxes. I believe the
> developments point towards how a country like Kenya will fund to run itself
> and provide public services through innovative perhaps unthought of revenue
> avenues.
>
> On the other hand, national labour agencies should be in a position to
> proactively share information to direct talent towards the future careers.
>
> Have a blessed day.
>
> Regards/Wangari
> ---
> Pray God Bless. 2013Wangari circa - "Being of the Light, We are Restored
> Through Faith in Mind, Body and Spirit; We Manifest The Kingdom of God on
> Earth".
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 1 March 2017, 10:27, Eric M K Osiakwan via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>
> The other day, my buddy David Pearson and I visited his mentor Bob Doyle
> who is an information philosopher
> <http://www.informationphilosopher.com/about/> (has become my friend as
> well) and his son Jeremy in their VR studio and after playing with the toys
> we sat to discuss VR, AI, AR and Robots and in that convo Bob postulated
> that Robots “could” develop their own free will - that scared the hell out
> of me and for the rest of that afternoon I would dwell on that thought deep
> into my sleep that night.
>
> Robots are currently slaves to humans but we know that robots have better
> eyesight, can work longer and better hours etc than humans so the import of
> Bob's postulation is that when (not if) Robots develop "free will” the
> master servant relationship would switch where we humans would become
> slaves to robots - I woke up the following day with this thought then it
> became clear to me why Elon Musk is worried that his friend Larry Page
> could destroy human kind and in the book “Elon Musk” by Ashlee Vanee, page
> 3 (Elon’s World) I quote “…He opened up about the major fear keeping him up
> at night: namely that Google cofounder and CEO Larry Page might well have
> been building a fleet of AI-enhanced robots capable of destroying mankind.
> “I’m really worried about this, “ Musk said….” - I have also being worried
> since.
>
> Eric here
>
>
> Eric M.K Osiakwan
>  "Accraboy" 4 Skype
> @eosiakwan 4 Twitter
>  www.ericosiakwan.com
> +233244386792 <+233%2024%20438%206792> 4 WhatsApp
>
> On Mar 1, 2017, at 1:39 AM, Admin CampusCiti via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> Alex
>
> Surgeons are finding it a lot easier to do surgery today using robots...
>
> *Ali Hussein*
> *Hussein & Associates*
> +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> / 0770906375
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
> Skype: abu-jomo
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
> <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
> Blog: www.alyhussein.com
>
> "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking
> what no one else has thought".  ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 1 Mar 2017, at 8:21 AM, awatila--- via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> Can a robot really take a doctors job?
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> *From: *Mildred Achoch via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, March 1, 2017 6:53 AM
> *To: *awatila at yahoo.co.uk
> *Cc: *Mildred Achoch <mildandred at gmail.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [kictanet] Why Bill Gates would tax robots
>
> In a related topic, here are the 5 jobs robots will take first:
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/5-jobs-robots-take-
> first-shelly-palmer?trk=eml-email_feed_ecosystem_digest_
> 01-hero-0-null&midToken=AQFVkI2BeqJI7g&fromEmail=
> fromEmail&ut=1P1hcNFzkBwnE1
> Regards,
> Mildred Achoch.
>
> Check out the Rock 'n' roll film festival, Kenya TV Channel!
> http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> I have a couple of concerns about this specific issue:
>
>    1. Firstly, robots do not do everything a person does. That said that
>    is why robots are "assisted" by human elements. The robots are only an
>    extension of the human function to make it "more efficient". In most cases
>    a robot is specialized in one specific line item duty. If they are placing
>    a wheel on a car in the plant they don't place a wheel on a car and go on
>    to record it in a book somewhere. They do just that. They did not go to
>    school to learn manufacturing processes.
>    2. Secondly, what would be termed as a robot (without abusing the
>    term). Is my WiFi modem a robot? Is my blender a robot? Is my car also a
>    robot??
>    3. Thirdly, are robots employed or purchased? (I thought VAT on buying
>    and maintaining robots was already a thing)
>
> Not entirely for this idea for sure.
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Admin CampusCiti via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> No doubt. That we need to ensure that we hold our government to account on
> how they spend our taxes and wherever we can we need to chip in and help
> the disadvantaged. We should be our brothers' and sisters' keepers.
> *Ali Hussein*
> *Hussein & Associates*
> +254 0713 601113 / 0770906375
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
> Skype: abu-jomo
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
> Blog: www.alyhussein.com
>
> "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking
> what no one else has thought".  ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 28 Feb 2017, at 4:54 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva <Kivuva at transworldafrica.com>
> wrote:
>
> That is true Ali. Human will have to develop skills needed in this
> evolving society. But we should remember in every society, there still will
> be the F student. There will be the elderly, and most importantly, the
> peasants. Those with skills will prosper. But we need social nets for the
> disadvantaged, and those who life has served them only lemons. This
> category will always be there in every society
>
> On Feb 28, 2017 3:49 PM, "Admin CampusCiti" <info at campusciti.com> wrote:
>
> We also need to consider the fact that humans need to upscale their
> competencies to enable us to live in this Information and data driven
> world. Going forward we will see more and more skilled workers stepping up
> to do more important work higher the value chain.
>
> In the scheme of things we tend to forget this important aspect. AI, MI
> etc are human instigated and human will remain at the top of the food
> chain.
>
> *Ali Hussein*
> *Hussein & Associates*
> +254 0713 601113 / 0770906375
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
> Skype: abu-jomo
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
> Blog: www.alyhussein.com
>
> "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking
> what no one else has thought".  ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 28 Feb 2017, at 3:06 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> Your point is very good Mark Elkins.
>
> I think Bill Gates is trying to simulate such a debate ... on what is
> the role of humans in an automated, mechanized, and robotized society.
> Traditionally, human labour has been considered as a factor of
> production. If we declare millions of human labour redundant, and
> there are no security measure build around it, where will humans go?
> How will they earn their food, education, healthcare, and shelter?
> Taxation is such a measure that build social security net around
> humanity. So that the robots can produce, and the enterprises pay
> government for upkeep of it's people, instead of hoarding the end
> products of robots in vaults, and other forms of securities.
> ______________________
> Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya
> twitter.com/lordmwesh
>
>
>
>
> On 28 February 2017 at 15:46, Mark Elkins via kictanet
> <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> I do agree though that if automation removed the jobs of existing people,
>
> they should be somehow compensated - either moved to a new job internally
> or
>
> re-trained or something positive. Usually with automation, the company can
>
> be expanded (make more profit) - which should mean more human staff.  That
>
> would be the ethical thing to do. I don't see this as a tax though.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 28/02/2017 13:33, Mark Elkins via kictanet wrote:
>
>
>
> This is probably the best reply so far!
>
>
>
> Personally, a robot is a tool. This could be my coffee maker making a cup
> of
>
> freshly ground coffee rather than a human taking the beans, grounding them
>
> with stones, adding them to boiling water - etc... all by hand. Agh.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 28/02/2017 11:19, awatila--- via kictanet wrote:
>
>
>
> I think in the discussion the original purpose of taxation is forgotten.
>
>
>
> A human being pays tax to the government to cover the cost of the common
>
> services provided by the government.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What are this services that the robot will be consuming from the government
>
> that they need to pay for?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Mark Kipyegon via kictanet
>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 12:06 PM
>
> To: awatila at yahoo.co.uk
>
> Cc: Mark Kipyegon
>
> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Why Bill Gates would tax robots
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> During the Industrial Revolution, critics of mechanisation would use
> similar
>
> arguments. Advances in technology should be embraced.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 28 Feb 2017, at 10:25, "kictanet-request at lists.kictanet.or.ke"
>
> <kictanet-request at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message: 3
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 10:21:47 +0300
>
>
>
> From: Job Muriuki <muriukin at gmail.com>
>
>
>
> To: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack at gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Why Bill Gates would tax robots
>
>
>
> Message-ID:
>
>
>
>   <CAJ+RKRbKRsadcYewDv-zEiAN0dpVKryxHye64aUc0FSB5toOkA at mail.gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Barrack,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am in business and I know it's the bottom line that counts at the expense
>
>
>
> of people.
>
>
>
> Now we further what to fire the already strained employee replace them
>
> with
>
>
>
> a robot
>
>
>
> for a fatter bank account and cash you don't need.
>
>
>
> I believe Bill Gates been the billionaire he is has realised you can have
>
>
>
> all the cash
>
>
>
> and wealth you can get but it all without meaning what really matters is
>
>
>
> the humanity.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
*Ahmed Maawy*
Principal Product Management Specialist - Al Jazeera Media Network
Skype: ultimateprogramer
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