[kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs

Fri Apr 30 15:27:09 EAT 2010

Friends,

Lets desist from such posts though, they elicit passions, we dont want
our dear listers to be Ocampoed, i hear that he is setting shop in
town.

Happy Labour Day

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau
<solo.mburu at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 28 April 2010 10:14, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Wainaina,
>>
>> For highlighting it and allowing us all to have a healthy discussion,
>> these are issues that form our outlooks towards each other and if not
>> cleared do lead to less healthy approaches to dealing with our
>> differences.....
>>
>> but I couldnt agree more with Harry, lets let it rest...
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Fatma
>>
>
> Just because one person from SUPKEM has found it wise to declare DSTV  and
> other video dens 'illegal' in Mandera, doesn't mean the whole Muslim
> community supports that.
> Many a time I have seen the way media makes a small matter blow out of
> proportion. For example, if two MPs from a region meet and declare their
> stand on something, the media quickly points out that the whole community
> and region has declared so. Yet in real sense, the MPs were trying to make
> some sideshows.
>
> It is important not to let the now polarised (my views) constitution debate,
> to also make the general society think of our 'public choice'
>>
>> On 4/28/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina at madeinkenya.org> wrote:
>> > Thanks Fatma,
>> >
>> > Well put ;-)
>> >
>> > If this very rare "admission" by government officials is the truth,
>> > then clearly, the matter should rest.
>> >
>> > If however, it is a move to 'manage' the Yes and No votes, then we
>> > will be back here discussing freedom of information, ICTs, propaganda
>> > and such relevant topics.
>> >
>> > I remain hopeful that this was a genuine error by journalists from BBC
>> > and other media houses.
>> >
>> > Time will tell.
>> >
>> > Wainaina
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 4/28/10, Harry Delano <harry at comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> All,
>> >>
>> >> This should settle this debate. A rep of the media house who earlier
>> >> reported, should take responsibility for misleading info and
>> >> duly apologise, if on this list..
>> >>
>> >> Let not this forum degenerate into a debate pitting opposing religions.
>> >> We
>> >> have quite alot in the field that pertains ICT, do deal with.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Harry
>> >>
>> >>   _____
>> >>
>> >> From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >> [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke at lists.kictanet.or.ke] On
>> >> Behalf Of Fatma Bashir
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 8:07 AM
>> >> To: harry at comtelsys.co.ke
>> >> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions
>> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> r Listers,
>> >>
>> >> Please see below, from Nation Media website: link is:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.nation.co.ke/News/PC%20says%20Govt%20shut%20down%20video%20dens/-
>> >> /1056/907416/-/111hh3i/-/index.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The government has claimed responsibility for a crackdown on video dens
>> >> in
>> >> North Eastern Province.
>> >>
>> >> RELATED STORIES
>> >>
>> >> *    Now Supkem
>> >>
>> >> <http://www.nation.co.ke/News/regional/Now%20Supkem%20bans%20DStv%20in%20Nor
>> >> th%20Eastern%20/-/1070/907312/-/qg8y6lz/-/index.html> 'bans' DStv in
>> >> North
>> >> Eastern
>> >>
>> >> The North Eastern Provincial Commissioner James ole Seriani also
>> >> reassured
>> >> Multichoice Kenya, the operator of the DSTv channels and the locals
>> >> that
>> >> neither the government nor the clerics would interfere with the
>> >> satellite
>> >> broadcaster.
>> >>
>> >> "I want to clarify a report appearing in both the local print and
>> >> broadcast
>> >> media that alleged that Sheikhs closed DSTv and video dens in Mandera.
>> >> The
>> >> truth is that the Mandera district security committee met in September
>> >> last
>> >> year and resolved to close all video dens," the administrator said in a
>> >> message sent out to the media.
>> >>
>> >> According to Mr Seriani, the district security committee was targeting
>> >> halls
>> >> that show immoral videos, those that hide criminals and aliens, those
>> >> that
>> >> admit school children when they are supposed to be in school and those
>> >> that
>> >> operate without license or sell drugs.
>> >>
>> >> "Let me emphasise that it is not the Sheikhs who banned the shows but
>> >> the
>> >> district security committee and DSTv has not been banned."
>> >>
>> >> The PC said the security team has no reason to interfere with DSTv
>> >> because
>> >> it only shows football, which he acknowledged was a popular sport in
>> >> North
>> >> Eastern.
>> >>
>> >> He was, however, categorical that the provincial administration would
>> >> carry
>> >> on with the crackdown until the illegal dens are wiped out.
>> >>
>> >> "We have the support of all the leaders which gives us the impetus to
>> >> carry
>> >> on with the clean-up," he said.
>> >>
>> >> I think we all agree that this time, the media was irresponsible in the
>> >> way
>> >> it reported this incident.  Journalism calls for responsibility,
>> >> especially
>> >> at a time when this country is trying to put in a new constitutional
>> >> order
>> >> and to heal some of the wounds of the past.  Any person who loves
>> >> children
>> >> and believes in order and morality would laud the move to shut down
>> >> video
>> >> dens that allow children to be exposed to vices such as pornography,
>> >> drugs
>> >> and sexual abuse, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic or
>> >> Atheist.
>> >> Good governance is also about building a society in which all persons
>> >> are
>> >> protected and particularly children, who are the most vulnerable of the
>> >> lot.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Wainaina Mungai
>> >> <wainaina at madeinkenya.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Fatma et al.
>> >>
>> >> SOURCES: KTN news and other press reports. See BBC reports online. I
>> >> verified the TV reports and watched as SUPKEM official lauded the
>> >> move, stating how they should spread it to other towns. Video
>> >> play-back available.
>> >>
>> >> DSTV & VIDEO DENS: See press reports for my source & related details.
>> >>
>> >> VIDEO DENS & JURISDICTION: Even where it is 'well-intended', a
>> >> religious leader has no jurisdiction over businesses or legal issues
>> >> such as the Muslim leaders purported to 'out-law'. So, it is not their
>> >> place to do so. That's the point being drummed into Kenyans. You may
>> >> lobby the government but you cannot outlaw anything with the imagined
>> >> mandate to do so.
>> >>
>> >> SUPKEM: A SUPKEM official was on TV stating how they should spread the
>> >> same to other towns. Wrong approach again: no jurisdiction. That's a
>> >> point that needs to get across otherwise, if Christians and Hindus
>> >> enforced their ''laws'', life would be very uncomfortable for
>> >> non-Christians or non-Hindus.
>> >>
>> >> SECULAR STATE: The fact that the PM and President profess any sort of
>> >> religion does not make KENYA a religious state. We need to be on the
>> >> same page on that one. Those are (personal convictions). We do not pay
>> >> them to perform (religious duties) towards persons who religiously
>> >> agree with them. We pay them to deliver on totally non-religious
>> >> functions of government/State for all people or every religion -
>> >> including aethists. The Khadhi courts are financed for a 'religious
>> >> function' that via the constitution is navigated into the realm of
>> >> state functions through the judiciary. The Kadhi Courts, if retained
>> >> in a Constitution, should be financed by those it is meant to serve.
>> >> Special funding using my taxes needs to go towards persons with
>> >> disabilities - not religious functions.
>> >>
>> >> SHARIAH & KADHI COURTS: I have to admit I do not know the connections.
>> >> What I was refering to is "Islamic teachings" that were quoted as the
>> >> basis of the actions of the said Sheikh and the what the SUPKEM
>> >> official stated would be spread to other towns. I may have dragged the
>> >> wrong terminology along but well am sure the point is clear. Your
>> >> religious convictions do not give you jurisdiction over anyone. We
>> >> have adequate mechanisms (enforced or otherwise) to address matters in
>> >> a non-religious manner. The Mombasa Mayor & councillors keep making
>> >> that very same mistake of mixing religion with their statutory role.
>> >> That is dangerous in a polarised situation as we what we have.
>> >>
>> >> SHARIA & THE POOR: I admire the way (real) followers of Islamic
>> >> teachings take care of others through alms and their dedication to
>> >> virtue. I also admire how true Christians do the same and give up
>> >> wealth for others in what some would call socialism. I admire how true
>> >> Hindus build hospitals and give free healthcare. However, none of
>> >> these should issue decrees or apply religious teachings on people who
>> >> do not 'profess' that religion. We would have to agree on a State
>> >> religion if we start that debate. Governance in a secular state (which
>> >> is what we have in Kenya) does not require application of religion. If
>> >> Kenya was to become a religious state....well, we all know it would be
>> >> a Christian state...making things rather unbearable for people who
>> >> profess other religions.
>> >>
>> >> DSTV/Multichoice made a business decision not to ''jump onto the
>> >> bandwagon'' (which included the Minister Poghisio) of condemning the
>> >> actions in Mandera. I would guess (& i may be wrong ;-) ) it was not
>> >> because they had a different conviction from that of the 'bandwagon'.
>> >> They needed a PR decision which does not apply in my case. I need
>> >> rights and freedoms enforced equally for all not because the Bible,
>> >> Koran or Torah says so....but bacuse it is the law of the land.
>> >>
>> >> DRUGS, HOMOSEXUALITY ETC: There is this growing trend at the Coast
>> >> where 'Islamic teachings' are being used by councillors, the Mayor and
>> >> Ministers from the region as their basis for fighting drug-trafficking
>> >> and homosexuality. Refer to statements by Mombasa Mayor and Minister
>> >> Balala in recent days (The Star). The basis for their recommedations
>> >> (though well-intended) shows the extent of the misconceptions about
>> >> the jurisdiction of religion in a secular state. The basis for
>> >> fightlng crime, drug abuse or whatever else they perceive to be
>> >> criminal is the KENYAN LAW - derived from Constitution, legislation,
>> >> regulation, council by-laws etc.
>> >>
>> >> Overall, my point is this: Religious leaders have a right to express
>> >> concerns but have no jurisdiction in enforcing matters of State. Kadhi
>> >> courts are to me, the product of such distorted views about the place
>> >> of religion in a secular state. In the draft constitution, we continue
>> >> to propagate a situation that favours one religion over others. The
>> >> impact will become clear in a couple of years.
>> >>
>> >> I have no quarrel with Islam, neither do I need to know the details of
>> >> what is and what is not Islam or Hindu, Buddhist or Christian. All I
>> >> need is the principles of good governance that apply to ALL persons in
>> >> a secular state. In cases such as Mandera and Mombasa, we must have
>> >> safeguards against people who may be mistaken in believing they have
>> >> jurisdiction over others simply because they profess a faith that
>> >> tells them as much.
>> >>
>> >> I hope we are now on the same page.
>> >>
>> >> Wainaina
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 4/28/10, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> Dear Listers,
>> >>>
>> >>> I read the article in the papers and tried to link the shariah law to
>> >>> what I was reading in vain....however tho late in response I felt it
>> >>> would be appropriate to share some personla views...
>> >>>
>> >>> response to the first post sent ( by Wainaina)
>> >>>
>> >>> I am not sure where the information came from that the closing down of
>> >>> video dens has anything to do with enforcement of shari'ah law.  It is
>> >>> a matter of fact that video dens, which are scattered all over the
>> >>> less affluent regions of the country, and mainly in slums, are
>> >>> responsible for very many ills in those areas.  Talk to anyone living
>> >>> in a slum in Nairobi and they will testify to the fact that not only
>> >>> are children missing school to watch unsuitable movies, they are
>> >>> picking up extremely bad habits from these video dens and are being
>> >>> exposed to sexual abuse by sexual predators who not only give them the
>> >>> entrance fee to watch some movies but prey on them while they are in
>> >>> those very dens.  It is about time somebody stood up to this.
>> >>> Secondly, you must be more responsible when making a statement such as
>> >>> 'outlaw DSTV video dens and related activities'.  The only thing that
>> >>> was outlawed was the video dens and it was done with the full support
>> >>> of the local authorities.  If you live in Mandera and decide to
>> >>> install DSTV in your own house, then so be it but please, allow them
>> >>> to take responsibility for what their children are being fed by way of
>> >>> 'entertainment'
>> >>>
>> >>> Anyone may watch supersport matches where they please and drink smoke
>> >>> etc but children must be protected. Try talking to someone whose child
>> >>> is exposed to this and lets hear what they have to say.
>> >>>
>> >>> This is not about kadhi's courts, this is about protecting children in
>> >>> Kenya and clearly the authorities there felt that it was an important
>> >>> move to make,  This is not about shariah or the current/new
>> >>> constitution or any of that..... but about right thinking adults
>> >>> seeking to protect children. It just so happens to be a step taken by
>> >>> a people in an area vastly populated by Muslims...
>> >>> I laud DSTV for not jumping on the bandwagon and making rash comments
>> >>> and connections but monitoring ( read gather correct information) the
>> >>> situation before putting egg on their faces...kudos Isaboke and
>> >>> Ondimu.
>> >>>
>> >>> Kenya is not a secular state. If it was, Raila would not go to such
>> >>> lengths to get himself baptized, and neither would the President going
>> >>> to church on Sunday be attended to by ministers and PSs and televised
>> >>> to boot.  Incidentally, I would like to know who fuels his car and
>> >>> pays for this bodyguards on Sunday  when he attends church - yes,
>> >>> yours and my hard earned taxes.
>> >>>
>> >>> Let us try and be be responsible over some of the connections we make
>> >>> I think that there is no doubt that the kadhis courts are about
>> >>> personal, family and inheritance law for the Muslims and in no way
>> >>> affects non muslims...so please vote yes...Jesus does say love your
>> >>> neighbour.....so do love us please.
>> >>>
>> >>> I challenge wainaina et all to find out more about shariah
>> >>> law...especially its inception and framework of implementation before
>> >>> the law is applied....and rest assured that Kenya is no where ready
>> >>> for this......and not in our great grand childrens lifetimes either.
>> >>> Please get facts from a reputable book or institutions some of the
>> >>> drivel I have read....!!!!
>> >>> kionjoo.....
>> >>> Do you think that the KRA would be ready and willing to take care of
>> >>> the poor and underpriviledged in this country by making sure that all
>> >>> eat ( three meals a day) get educated ( at public costs fully) have
>> >>> roofs over each and every head? using the taxes of the rich and
>> >>> priveledged to make sure that the poor and underpreviledged lead a
>> >>> minimum acceptable basic existence thus eliminating any reason to for
>> >>> example steal.......that is the FIRST demand shariah law would make
>> >>> upon its government.....yep Kenya not ready for this at all!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>> Fatma
>> >>>
>> >>>  PS, as I am not a scholar on islamic studies the views above are
>> >>> personla but anchored on my limited understanding of fiqh islamic
>> >>> law..
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 4/27/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina at madeinkenya.org> wrote:
>> >>>> The recent move by Muslim Sheikhs to enforce Sharia Law, outlaw DSTV,
>> >>>> video dens & related activities in Mandera could not have come at a
>> >>>> more unfortunate time. The support they have received from SUPREM
>> >>>> (Supreme Council of Kenya Muslims) further complicates the debate on
>> >>>> the "continued" inclusion of Kadhi Courts in our Constitution.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Now that the SUPKEM has proved to support such apparent 'treason' in
>> >>>> my secular nation,  President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga must
>> >>>> also commit to ensuring that religion and religious courts are
>> >>>> omitted
>> >>>> from the new constitution. That is the pact they must sign with the
>> >>>> NO
>> >>>> campaign if a YES vote is to sail through without question. No
>> >>>> religion, especially fundamentalist Islam, should enjoy the
>> >>>> privileges
>> >>>> of my hard-earned taxes to propagate religious activities that may
>> >>>> disintegrate into such treasonable actions as by the Sheikhs.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> My vote would easily change to a resounding "NO" unless I am assured
>> >>>> by the Constitution that no Sheikh or Buddist monk, Hindu priest or
>> >>>> Christian cleric will get away with the absurd audacity of attempting
>> >>>> to determine where I watch my Supersport matches, what I drink as I
>> >>>> do
>> >>>> so; where and what I can smoke or drink in an independent secular
>> >>>> KENYA.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No religion should 'get it twisted' on its place in secular Kenya and
>> >>>> no loopholes should allow Sheikhs or SUPKEM to get away with such
>> >>>> treasonable actions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>> Wainaina
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Sent from my mobile device
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Wainaina Mungai
>> >>>> -----
>> >>>> http://www.bungesms.com
>> >>>> http://www.madeinkenya.org
>> >>>> http://www.wainainamungai.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the
>> >>>> life
>> >>>> of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
>> >>>> being shared. ~ Buddha~
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> kictanet mailing list
>> >>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This message was sent to: fatma.bashir at gmail.com
>> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fatma.bashir%40gmail.co
>> >> m
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my mobile device
>> >>
>> >> Wainaina Mungai
>> >> -----
>> >> http://www.bungesms.com
>> >> http://www.madeinkenya.org
>> >> http://www.wainainamungai.com
>> >>
>> >> Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
>> >> of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
>> >> being shared. ~ Buddha~
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Wainaina Mungai
>> > -----
>> > http://www.bungesms.com
>> > http://www.madeinkenya.org
>> > http://www.wainainamungai.com
>> >
>> > Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
>> > of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
>> > being shared. ~ Buddha~
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > kictanet mailing list
>> > kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> >
>> > This message was sent to: fatma.bashir at gmail.com
>> > Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >
>> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fatma.bashir%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Solomon Mbũrũ Kamau
> P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi
> Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041
>
> Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will graze all the
> same way to the side of a hill!
>
> AND
>
> It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous generosity!
>
> http://smiley2.wordpress.com
> http://mburu.sikika.co.ke
>
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-- 
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Skype: barrack.otieno