[kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs

Fri Apr 30 14:12:17 EAT 2010

On 28 April 2010 10:14, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Wainaina,
>
> For highlighting it and allowing us all to have a healthy discussion,
> these are issues that form our outlooks towards each other and if not
> cleared do lead to less healthy approaches to dealing with our
> differences.....
>
> but I couldnt agree more with Harry, lets let it rest...
>
> Cheers
>
> Fatma
>
>
Just because one person from SUPKEM has found it wise to declare DSTV  and
other video dens 'illegal' in Mandera, doesn't mean the whole Muslim
community supports that.
Many a time I have seen the way media makes a small matter blow out of
proportion. For example, if two MPs from a region meet and declare their
stand on something, the media quickly points out that the whole community
and region has declared so. Yet in real sense, the MPs were trying to make
some sideshows.

It is important not to let the now polarised (my views) constitution debate,
to also make the general society think of our 'public choice'

> On 4/28/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina at madeinkenya.org> wrote:
> > Thanks Fatma,
> >
> > Well put ;-)
> >
> > If this very rare "admission" by government officials is the truth,
> > then clearly, the matter should rest.
> >
> > If however, it is a move to 'manage' the Yes and No votes, then we
> > will be back here discussing freedom of information, ICTs, propaganda
> > and such relevant topics.
> >
> > I remain hopeful that this was a genuine error by journalists from BBC
> > and other media houses.
> >
> > Time will tell.
> >
> > Wainaina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/28/10, Harry Delano <harry at comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:
> >>
> >> All,
> >>
> >> This should settle this debate. A rep of the media house who earlier
> >> reported, should take responsibility for misleading info and
> >> duly apologise, if on this list..
> >>
> >> Let not this forum degenerate into a debate pitting opposing religions.
> We
> >> have quite alot in the field that pertains ICT, do deal with.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Harry
> >>
> >>   _____
> >>
> >> From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke at lists.kictanet.or.ke
> >> [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <kictanet-bounces%2Bharry>=
> comtelsys.co.ke at lists.kictanet.or.ke] On
> >> Behalf Of Fatma Bashir
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 8:07 AM
> >> To: harry at comtelsys.co.ke
> >> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions
> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs
> >>
> >>
> >> r Listers,
> >>
> >> Please see below, from Nation Media website: link is:
> >>
> http://www.nation.co.ke/News/PC%20says%20Govt%20shut%20down%20video%20dens/-
> >> /1056/907416/-/111hh3i/-/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The government has claimed responsibility for a crackdown on video dens
> in
> >> North Eastern Province.
> >>
> >> RELATED STORIES
> >>
> >> *    Now Supkem
> >> <
> http://www.nation.co.ke/News/regional/Now%20Supkem%20bans%20DStv%20in%20Nor
> >> th%20Eastern%20/-/1070/907312/-/qg8y6lz/-/index.html> 'bans' DStv in
> North
> >> Eastern
> >>
> >> The North Eastern Provincial Commissioner James ole Seriani also
> reassured
> >> Multichoice Kenya, the operator of the DSTv channels and the locals that
> >> neither the government nor the clerics would interfere with the
> satellite
> >> broadcaster.
> >>
> >> "I want to clarify a report appearing in both the local print and
> >> broadcast
> >> media that alleged that Sheikhs closed DSTv and video dens in Mandera.
> The
> >> truth is that the Mandera district security committee met in September
> >> last
> >> year and resolved to close all video dens," the administrator said in a
> >> message sent out to the media.
> >>
> >> According to Mr Seriani, the district security committee was targeting
> >> halls
> >> that show immoral videos, those that hide criminals and aliens, those
> that
> >> admit school children when they are supposed to be in school and those
> >> that
> >> operate without license or sell drugs.
> >>
> >> "Let me emphasise that it is not the Sheikhs who banned the shows but
> the
> >> district security committee and DSTv has not been banned."
> >>
> >> The PC said the security team has no reason to interfere with DSTv
> because
> >> it only shows football, which he acknowledged was a popular sport in
> North
> >> Eastern.
> >>
> >> He was, however, categorical that the provincial administration would
> >> carry
> >> on with the crackdown until the illegal dens are wiped out.
> >>
> >> "We have the support of all the leaders which gives us the impetus to
> >> carry
> >> on with the clean-up," he said.
> >>
> >> I think we all agree that this time, the media was irresponsible in the
> >> way
> >> it reported this incident.  Journalism calls for responsibility,
> >> especially
> >> at a time when this country is trying to put in a new constitutional
> order
> >> and to heal some of the wounds of the past.  Any person who loves
> children
> >> and believes in order and morality would laud the move to shut down
> video
> >> dens that allow children to be exposed to vices such as pornography,
> drugs
> >> and sexual abuse, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic or Atheist.
> >> Good governance is also about building a society in which all persons
> are
> >> protected and particularly children, who are the most vulnerable of the
> >> lot.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Wainaina Mungai
> >> <wainaina at madeinkenya.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Fatma et al.
> >>
> >> SOURCES: KTN news and other press reports. See BBC reports online. I
> >> verified the TV reports and watched as SUPKEM official lauded the
> >> move, stating how they should spread it to other towns. Video
> >> play-back available.
> >>
> >> DSTV & VIDEO DENS: See press reports for my source & related details.
> >>
> >> VIDEO DENS & JURISDICTION: Even where it is 'well-intended', a
> >> religious leader has no jurisdiction over businesses or legal issues
> >> such as the Muslim leaders purported to 'out-law'. So, it is not their
> >> place to do so. That's the point being drummed into Kenyans. You may
> >> lobby the government but you cannot outlaw anything with the imagined
> >> mandate to do so.
> >>
> >> SUPKEM: A SUPKEM official was on TV stating how they should spread the
> >> same to other towns. Wrong approach again: no jurisdiction. That's a
> >> point that needs to get across otherwise, if Christians and Hindus
> >> enforced their ''laws'', life would be very uncomfortable for
> >> non-Christians or non-Hindus.
> >>
> >> SECULAR STATE: The fact that the PM and President profess any sort of
> >> religion does not make KENYA a religious state. We need to be on the
> >> same page on that one. Those are (personal convictions). We do not pay
> >> them to perform (religious duties) towards persons who religiously
> >> agree with them. We pay them to deliver on totally non-religious
> >> functions of government/State for all people or every religion -
> >> including aethists. The Khadhi courts are financed for a 'religious
> >> function' that via the constitution is navigated into the realm of
> >> state functions through the judiciary. The Kadhi Courts, if retained
> >> in a Constitution, should be financed by those it is meant to serve.
> >> Special funding using my taxes needs to go towards persons with
> >> disabilities - not religious functions.
> >>
> >> SHARIAH & KADHI COURTS: I have to admit I do not know the connections.
> >> What I was refering to is "Islamic teachings" that were quoted as the
> >> basis of the actions of the said Sheikh and the what the SUPKEM
> >> official stated would be spread to other towns. I may have dragged the
> >> wrong terminology along but well am sure the point is clear. Your
> >> religious convictions do not give you jurisdiction over anyone. We
> >> have adequate mechanisms (enforced or otherwise) to address matters in
> >> a non-religious manner. The Mombasa Mayor & councillors keep making
> >> that very same mistake of mixing religion with their statutory role.
> >> That is dangerous in a polarised situation as we what we have.
> >>
> >> SHARIA & THE POOR: I admire the way (real) followers of Islamic
> >> teachings take care of others through alms and their dedication to
> >> virtue. I also admire how true Christians do the same and give up
> >> wealth for others in what some would call socialism. I admire how true
> >> Hindus build hospitals and give free healthcare. However, none of
> >> these should issue decrees or apply religious teachings on people who
> >> do not 'profess' that religion. We would have to agree on a State
> >> religion if we start that debate. Governance in a secular state (which
> >> is what we have in Kenya) does not require application of religion. If
> >> Kenya was to become a religious state....well, we all know it would be
> >> a Christian state...making things rather unbearable for people who
> >> profess other religions.
> >>
> >> DSTV/Multichoice made a business decision not to ''jump onto the
> >> bandwagon'' (which included the Minister Poghisio) of condemning the
> >> actions in Mandera. I would guess (& i may be wrong ;-) ) it was not
> >> because they had a different conviction from that of the 'bandwagon'.
> >> They needed a PR decision which does not apply in my case. I need
> >> rights and freedoms enforced equally for all not because the Bible,
> >> Koran or Torah says so....but bacuse it is the law of the land.
> >>
> >> DRUGS, HOMOSEXUALITY ETC: There is this growing trend at the Coast
> >> where 'Islamic teachings' are being used by councillors, the Mayor and
> >> Ministers from the region as their basis for fighting drug-trafficking
> >> and homosexuality. Refer to statements by Mombasa Mayor and Minister
> >> Balala in recent days (The Star). The basis for their recommedations
> >> (though well-intended) shows the extent of the misconceptions about
> >> the jurisdiction of religion in a secular state. The basis for
> >> fightlng crime, drug abuse or whatever else they perceive to be
> >> criminal is the KENYAN LAW - derived from Constitution, legislation,
> >> regulation, council by-laws etc.
> >>
> >> Overall, my point is this: Religious leaders have a right to express
> >> concerns but have no jurisdiction in enforcing matters of State. Kadhi
> >> courts are to me, the product of such distorted views about the place
> >> of religion in a secular state. In the draft constitution, we continue
> >> to propagate a situation that favours one religion over others. The
> >> impact will become clear in a couple of years.
> >>
> >> I have no quarrel with Islam, neither do I need to know the details of
> >> what is and what is not Islam or Hindu, Buddhist or Christian. All I
> >> need is the principles of good governance that apply to ALL persons in
> >> a secular state. In cases such as Mandera and Mombasa, we must have
> >> safeguards against people who may be mistaken in believing they have
> >> jurisdiction over others simply because they profess a faith that
> >> tells them as much.
> >>
> >> I hope we are now on the same page.
> >>
> >> Wainaina
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4/28/10, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Dear Listers,
> >>>
> >>> I read the article in the papers and tried to link the shariah law to
> >>> what I was reading in vain....however tho late in response I felt it
> >>> would be appropriate to share some personla views...
> >>>
> >>> response to the first post sent ( by Wainaina)
> >>>
> >>> I am not sure where the information came from that the closing down of
> >>> video dens has anything to do with enforcement of shari'ah law.  It is
> >>> a matter of fact that video dens, which are scattered all over the
> >>> less affluent regions of the country, and mainly in slums, are
> >>> responsible for very many ills in those areas.  Talk to anyone living
> >>> in a slum in Nairobi and they will testify to the fact that not only
> >>> are children missing school to watch unsuitable movies, they are
> >>> picking up extremely bad habits from these video dens and are being
> >>> exposed to sexual abuse by sexual predators who not only give them the
> >>> entrance fee to watch some movies but prey on them while they are in
> >>> those very dens.  It is about time somebody stood up to this.
> >>> Secondly, you must be more responsible when making a statement such as
> >>> 'outlaw DSTV video dens and related activities'.  The only thing that
> >>> was outlawed was the video dens and it was done with the full support
> >>> of the local authorities.  If you live in Mandera and decide to
> >>> install DSTV in your own house, then so be it but please, allow them
> >>> to take responsibility for what their children are being fed by way of
> >>> 'entertainment'
> >>>
> >>> Anyone may watch supersport matches where they please and drink smoke
> >>> etc but children must be protected. Try talking to someone whose child
> >>> is exposed to this and lets hear what they have to say.
> >>>
> >>> This is not about kadhi's courts, this is about protecting children in
> >>> Kenya and clearly the authorities there felt that it was an important
> >>> move to make,  This is not about shariah or the current/new
> >>> constitution or any of that..... but about right thinking adults
> >>> seeking to protect children. It just so happens to be a step taken by
> >>> a people in an area vastly populated by Muslims...
> >>> I laud DSTV for not jumping on the bandwagon and making rash comments
> >>> and connections but monitoring ( read gather correct information) the
> >>> situation before putting egg on their faces...kudos Isaboke and
> >>> Ondimu.
> >>>
> >>> Kenya is not a secular state. If it was, Raila would not go to such
> >>> lengths to get himself baptized, and neither would the President going
> >>> to church on Sunday be attended to by ministers and PSs and televised
> >>> to boot.  Incidentally, I would like to know who fuels his car and
> >>> pays for this bodyguards on Sunday  when he attends church - yes,
> >>> yours and my hard earned taxes.
> >>>
> >>> Let us try and be be responsible over some of the connections we make
> >>> I think that there is no doubt that the kadhis courts are about
> >>> personal, family and inheritance law for the Muslims and in no way
> >>> affects non muslims...so please vote yes...Jesus does say love your
> >>> neighbour.....so do love us please.
> >>>
> >>> I challenge wainaina et all to find out more about shariah
> >>> law...especially its inception and framework of implementation before
> >>> the law is applied....and rest assured that Kenya is no where ready
> >>> for this......and not in our great grand childrens lifetimes either.
> >>> Please get facts from a reputable book or institutions some of the
> >>> drivel I have read....!!!!
> >>> kionjoo.....
> >>> Do you think that the KRA would be ready and willing to take care of
> >>> the poor and underpriviledged in this country by making sure that all
> >>> eat ( three meals a day) get educated ( at public costs fully) have
> >>> roofs over each and every head? using the taxes of the rich and
> >>> priveledged to make sure that the poor and underpreviledged lead a
> >>> minimum acceptable basic existence thus eliminating any reason to for
> >>> example steal.......that is the FIRST demand shariah law would make
> >>> upon its government.....yep Kenya not ready for this at all!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Fatma
> >>>
> >>>  PS, as I am not a scholar on islamic studies the views above are
> >>> personla but anchored on my limited understanding of fiqh islamic
> >>> law..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 4/27/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina at madeinkenya.org> wrote:
> >>>> The recent move by Muslim Sheikhs to enforce Sharia Law, outlaw DSTV,
> >>>> video dens & related activities in Mandera could not have come at a
> >>>> more unfortunate time. The support they have received from SUPREM
> >>>> (Supreme Council of Kenya Muslims) further complicates the debate on
> >>>> the "continued" inclusion of Kadhi Courts in our Constitution.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now that the SUPKEM has proved to support such apparent 'treason' in
> >>>> my secular nation,  President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga must
> >>>> also commit to ensuring that religion and religious courts are omitted
> >>>> from the new constitution. That is the pact they must sign with the NO
> >>>> campaign if a YES vote is to sail through without question. No
> >>>> religion, especially fundamentalist Islam, should enjoy the privileges
> >>>> of my hard-earned taxes to propagate religious activities that may
> >>>> disintegrate into such treasonable actions as by the Sheikhs.
> >>>>
> >>>> My vote would easily change to a resounding "NO" unless I am assured
> >>>> by the Constitution that no Sheikh or Buddist monk, Hindu priest or
> >>>> Christian cleric will get away with the absurd audacity of attempting
> >>>> to determine where I watch my Supersport matches, what I drink as I do
> >>>> so; where and what I can smoke or drink in an independent secular
> >>>> KENYA.
> >>>>
> >>>> No religion should 'get it twisted' on its place in secular Kenya and
> >>>> no loopholes should allow Sheikhs or SUPKEM to get away with such
> >>>> treasonable actions.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Wainaina
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Sent from my mobile device
> >>>>
> >>>> Wainaina Mungai
> >>>> -----
> >>>> http://www.bungesms.com
> >>>> http://www.madeinkenya.org
> >>>> http://www.wainainamungai.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
> >>>> of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
> >>>> being shared. ~ Buddha~
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> kictanet mailing list
> >>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
> >>>>
> >>>> This message was sent to: fatma.bashir at gmail.com
> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
> >>>>
> >>
> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fatma.bashir%40gmail.co
> >> m
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Sent from my mobile device
> >>
> >> Wainaina Mungai
> >> -----
> >> http://www.bungesms.com
> >> http://www.madeinkenya.org
> >> http://www.wainainamungai.com
> >>
> >> Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
> >> of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
> >> being shared. ~ Buddha~
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Wainaina Mungai
> > -----
> > http://www.bungesms.com
> > http://www.madeinkenya.org
> > http://www.wainainamungai.com
> >
> > Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
> > of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
> > being shared. ~ Buddha~
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > kictanet mailing list
> > kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
> >
> > This message was sent to: fatma.bashir at gmail.com
> > Unsubscribe or change your options at
> >
> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fatma.bashir%40gmail.com
> >
>
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-- 
Solomon Mbũrũ Kamau
P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi
Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041

Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will graze all the
same way to the side of a hill!

AND

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