[kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs

Wed Apr 28 10:14:45 EAT 2010

Thanks Wainaina,

For highlighting it and allowing us all to have a healthy discussion,
these are issues that form our outlooks towards each other and if not
cleared do lead to less healthy approaches to dealing with our
differences.....

but I couldnt agree more with Harry, lets let it rest...

Cheers

Fatma

On 4/28/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina at madeinkenya.org> wrote:
> Thanks Fatma,
>
> Well put ;-)
>
> If this very rare "admission" by government officials is the truth,
> then clearly, the matter should rest.
>
> If however, it is a move to 'manage' the Yes and No votes, then we
> will be back here discussing freedom of information, ICTs, propaganda
> and such relevant topics.
>
> I remain hopeful that this was a genuine error by journalists from BBC
> and other media houses.
>
> Time will tell.
>
> Wainaina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4/28/10, Harry Delano <harry at comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>> This should settle this debate. A rep of the media house who earlier
>> reported, should take responsibility for misleading info and
>> duly apologise, if on this list..
>>
>> Let not this forum degenerate into a debate pitting opposing religions. We
>> have quite alot in the field that pertains ICT, do deal with.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Harry
>>
>>   _____
>>
>> From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke at lists.kictanet.or.ke] On
>> Behalf Of Fatma Bashir
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 8:07 AM
>> To: harry at comtelsys.co.ke
>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions
>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs
>>
>>
>> r Listers,
>>
>> Please see below, from Nation Media website: link is:
>> http://www.nation.co.ke/News/PC%20says%20Govt%20shut%20down%20video%20dens/-
>> /1056/907416/-/111hh3i/-/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>> The government has claimed responsibility for a crackdown on video dens in
>> North Eastern Province.
>>
>> RELATED STORIES
>>
>> *	Now Supkem
>> <http://www.nation.co.ke/News/regional/Now%20Supkem%20bans%20DStv%20in%20Nor
>> th%20Eastern%20/-/1070/907312/-/qg8y6lz/-/index.html> 'bans' DStv in North
>> Eastern
>>
>> The North Eastern Provincial Commissioner James ole Seriani also reassured
>> Multichoice Kenya, the operator of the DSTv channels and the locals that
>> neither the government nor the clerics would interfere with the satellite
>> broadcaster.
>>
>> "I want to clarify a report appearing in both the local print and
>> broadcast
>> media that alleged that Sheikhs closed DSTv and video dens in Mandera. The
>> truth is that the Mandera district security committee met in September
>> last
>> year and resolved to close all video dens," the administrator said in a
>> message sent out to the media.
>>
>> According to Mr Seriani, the district security committee was targeting
>> halls
>> that show immoral videos, those that hide criminals and aliens, those that
>> admit school children when they are supposed to be in school and those
>> that
>> operate without license or sell drugs.
>>
>> "Let me emphasise that it is not the Sheikhs who banned the shows but the
>> district security committee and DSTv has not been banned."
>>
>> The PC said the security team has no reason to interfere with DSTv because
>> it only shows football, which he acknowledged was a popular sport in North
>> Eastern.
>>
>> He was, however, categorical that the provincial administration would
>> carry
>> on with the crackdown until the illegal dens are wiped out.
>>
>> "We have the support of all the leaders which gives us the impetus to
>> carry
>> on with the clean-up," he said.
>>
>> I think we all agree that this time, the media was irresponsible in the
>> way
>> it reported this incident.  Journalism calls for responsibility,
>> especially
>> at a time when this country is trying to put in a new constitutional order
>> and to heal some of the wounds of the past.  Any person who loves children
>> and believes in order and morality would laud the move to shut down video
>> dens that allow children to be exposed to vices such as pornography, drugs
>> and sexual abuse, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic or Atheist.
>> Good governance is also about building a society in which all persons are
>> protected and particularly children, who are the most vulnerable of the
>> lot.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Wainaina Mungai
>> <wainaina at madeinkenya.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Fatma et al.
>>
>> SOURCES: KTN news and other press reports. See BBC reports online. I
>> verified the TV reports and watched as SUPKEM official lauded the
>> move, stating how they should spread it to other towns. Video
>> play-back available.
>>
>> DSTV & VIDEO DENS: See press reports for my source & related details.
>>
>> VIDEO DENS & JURISDICTION: Even where it is 'well-intended', a
>> religious leader has no jurisdiction over businesses or legal issues
>> such as the Muslim leaders purported to 'out-law'. So, it is not their
>> place to do so. That's the point being drummed into Kenyans. You may
>> lobby the government but you cannot outlaw anything with the imagined
>> mandate to do so.
>>
>> SUPKEM: A SUPKEM official was on TV stating how they should spread the
>> same to other towns. Wrong approach again: no jurisdiction. That's a
>> point that needs to get across otherwise, if Christians and Hindus
>> enforced their ''laws'', life would be very uncomfortable for
>> non-Christians or non-Hindus.
>>
>> SECULAR STATE: The fact that the PM and President profess any sort of
>> religion does not make KENYA a religious state. We need to be on the
>> same page on that one. Those are (personal convictions). We do not pay
>> them to perform (religious duties) towards persons who religiously
>> agree with them. We pay them to deliver on totally non-religious
>> functions of government/State for all people or every religion -
>> including aethists. The Khadhi courts are financed for a 'religious
>> function' that via the constitution is navigated into the realm of
>> state functions through the judiciary. The Kadhi Courts, if retained
>> in a Constitution, should be financed by those it is meant to serve.
>> Special funding using my taxes needs to go towards persons with
>> disabilities - not religious functions.
>>
>> SHARIAH & KADHI COURTS: I have to admit I do not know the connections.
>> What I was refering to is "Islamic teachings" that were quoted as the
>> basis of the actions of the said Sheikh and the what the SUPKEM
>> official stated would be spread to other towns. I may have dragged the
>> wrong terminology along but well am sure the point is clear. Your
>> religious convictions do not give you jurisdiction over anyone. We
>> have adequate mechanisms (enforced or otherwise) to address matters in
>> a non-religious manner. The Mombasa Mayor & councillors keep making
>> that very same mistake of mixing religion with their statutory role.
>> That is dangerous in a polarised situation as we what we have.
>>
>> SHARIA & THE POOR: I admire the way (real) followers of Islamic
>> teachings take care of others through alms and their dedication to
>> virtue. I also admire how true Christians do the same and give up
>> wealth for others in what some would call socialism. I admire how true
>> Hindus build hospitals and give free healthcare. However, none of
>> these should issue decrees or apply religious teachings on people who
>> do not 'profess' that religion. We would have to agree on a State
>> religion if we start that debate. Governance in a secular state (which
>> is what we have in Kenya) does not require application of religion. If
>> Kenya was to become a religious state....well, we all know it would be
>> a Christian state...making things rather unbearable for people who
>> profess other religions.
>>
>> DSTV/Multichoice made a business decision not to ''jump onto the
>> bandwagon'' (which included the Minister Poghisio) of condemning the
>> actions in Mandera. I would guess (& i may be wrong ;-) ) it was not
>> because they had a different conviction from that of the 'bandwagon'.
>> They needed a PR decision which does not apply in my case. I need
>> rights and freedoms enforced equally for all not because the Bible,
>> Koran or Torah says so....but bacuse it is the law of the land.
>>
>> DRUGS, HOMOSEXUALITY ETC: There is this growing trend at the Coast
>> where 'Islamic teachings' are being used by councillors, the Mayor and
>> Ministers from the region as their basis for fighting drug-trafficking
>> and homosexuality. Refer to statements by Mombasa Mayor and Minister
>> Balala in recent days (The Star). The basis for their recommedations
>> (though well-intended) shows the extent of the misconceptions about
>> the jurisdiction of religion in a secular state. The basis for
>> fightlng crime, drug abuse or whatever else they perceive to be
>> criminal is the KENYAN LAW - derived from Constitution, legislation,
>> regulation, council by-laws etc.
>>
>> Overall, my point is this: Religious leaders have a right to express
>> concerns but have no jurisdiction in enforcing matters of State. Kadhi
>> courts are to me, the product of such distorted views about the place
>> of religion in a secular state. In the draft constitution, we continue
>> to propagate a situation that favours one religion over others. The
>> impact will become clear in a couple of years.
>>
>> I have no quarrel with Islam, neither do I need to know the details of
>> what is and what is not Islam or Hindu, Buddhist or Christian. All I
>> need is the principles of good governance that apply to ALL persons in
>> a secular state. In cases such as Mandera and Mombasa, we must have
>> safeguards against people who may be mistaken in believing they have
>> jurisdiction over others simply because they profess a faith that
>> tells them as much.
>>
>> I hope we are now on the same page.
>>
>> Wainaina
>>
>>
>> On 4/28/10, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dear Listers,
>>>
>>> I read the article in the papers and tried to link the shariah law to
>>> what I was reading in vain....however tho late in response I felt it
>>> would be appropriate to share some personla views...
>>>
>>> response to the first post sent ( by Wainaina)
>>>
>>> I am not sure where the information came from that the closing down of
>>> video dens has anything to do with enforcement of shari'ah law.  It is
>>> a matter of fact that video dens, which are scattered all over the
>>> less affluent regions of the country, and mainly in slums, are
>>> responsible for very many ills in those areas.  Talk to anyone living
>>> in a slum in Nairobi and they will testify to the fact that not only
>>> are children missing school to watch unsuitable movies, they are
>>> picking up extremely bad habits from these video dens and are being
>>> exposed to sexual abuse by sexual predators who not only give them the
>>> entrance fee to watch some movies but prey on them while they are in
>>> those very dens.  It is about time somebody stood up to this.
>>> Secondly, you must be more responsible when making a statement such as
>>> 'outlaw DSTV video dens and related activities'.  The only thing that
>>> was outlawed was the video dens and it was done with the full support
>>> of the local authorities.  If you live in Mandera and decide to
>>> install DSTV in your own house, then so be it but please, allow them
>>> to take responsibility for what their children are being fed by way of
>>> 'entertainment'
>>>
>>> Anyone may watch supersport matches where they please and drink smoke
>>> etc but children must be protected. Try talking to someone whose child
>>> is exposed to this and lets hear what they have to say.
>>>
>>> This is not about kadhi's courts, this is about protecting children in
>>> Kenya and clearly the authorities there felt that it was an important
>>> move to make,  This is not about shariah or the current/new
>>> constitution or any of that..... but about right thinking adults
>>> seeking to protect children. It just so happens to be a step taken by
>>> a people in an area vastly populated by Muslims...
>>> I laud DSTV for not jumping on the bandwagon and making rash comments
>>> and connections but monitoring ( read gather correct information) the
>>> situation before putting egg on their faces...kudos Isaboke and
>>> Ondimu.
>>>
>>> Kenya is not a secular state. If it was, Raila would not go to such
>>> lengths to get himself baptized, and neither would the President going
>>> to church on Sunday be attended to by ministers and PSs and televised
>>> to boot.  Incidentally, I would like to know who fuels his car and
>>> pays for this bodyguards on Sunday  when he attends church - yes,
>>> yours and my hard earned taxes.
>>>
>>> Let us try and be be responsible over some of the connections we make
>>> I think that there is no doubt that the kadhis courts are about
>>> personal, family and inheritance law for the Muslims and in no way
>>> affects non muslims...so please vote yes...Jesus does say love your
>>> neighbour.....so do love us please.
>>>
>>> I challenge wainaina et all to find out more about shariah
>>> law...especially its inception and framework of implementation before
>>> the law is applied....and rest assured that Kenya is no where ready
>>> for this......and not in our great grand childrens lifetimes either.
>>> Please get facts from a reputable book or institutions some of the
>>> drivel I have read....!!!!
>>> kionjoo.....
>>> Do you think that the KRA would be ready and willing to take care of
>>> the poor and underpriviledged in this country by making sure that all
>>> eat ( three meals a day) get educated ( at public costs fully) have
>>> roofs over each and every head? using the taxes of the rich and
>>> priveledged to make sure that the poor and underpreviledged lead a
>>> minimum acceptable basic existence thus eliminating any reason to for
>>> example steal.......that is the FIRST demand shariah law would make
>>> upon its government.....yep Kenya not ready for this at all!
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Fatma
>>>
>>>  PS, as I am not a scholar on islamic studies the views above are
>>> personla but anchored on my limited understanding of fiqh islamic
>>> law..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/27/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina at madeinkenya.org> wrote:
>>>> The recent move by Muslim Sheikhs to enforce Sharia Law, outlaw DSTV,
>>>> video dens & related activities in Mandera could not have come at a
>>>> more unfortunate time. The support they have received from SUPREM
>>>> (Supreme Council of Kenya Muslims) further complicates the debate on
>>>> the "continued" inclusion of Kadhi Courts in our Constitution.
>>>>
>>>> Now that the SUPKEM has proved to support such apparent 'treason' in
>>>> my secular nation,  President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga must
>>>> also commit to ensuring that religion and religious courts are omitted
>>>> from the new constitution. That is the pact they must sign with the NO
>>>> campaign if a YES vote is to sail through without question. No
>>>> religion, especially fundamentalist Islam, should enjoy the privileges
>>>> of my hard-earned taxes to propagate religious activities that may
>>>> disintegrate into such treasonable actions as by the Sheikhs.
>>>>
>>>> My vote would easily change to a resounding "NO" unless I am assured
>>>> by the Constitution that no Sheikh or Buddist monk, Hindu priest or
>>>> Christian cleric will get away with the absurd audacity of attempting
>>>> to determine where I watch my Supersport matches, what I drink as I do
>>>> so; where and what I can smoke or drink in an independent secular
>>>> KENYA.
>>>>
>>>> No religion should 'get it twisted' on its place in secular Kenya and
>>>> no loopholes should allow Sheikhs or SUPKEM to get away with such
>>>> treasonable actions.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Wainaina
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my mobile device
>>>>
>>>> Wainaina Mungai
>>>> -----
>>>> http://www.bungesms.com
>>>> http://www.madeinkenya.org
>>>> http://www.wainainamungai.com
>>>>
>>>> Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
>>>> of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
>>>> being shared. ~ Buddha~
>>>>
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>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fatma.bashir%40gmail.co
>> m
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Sent from my mobile device
>>
>> Wainaina Mungai
>> -----
>> http://www.bungesms.com
>> http://www.madeinkenya.org
>> http://www.wainainamungai.com
>>
>> Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
>> of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
>> being shared. ~ Buddha~
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Wainaina Mungai
> -----
> http://www.bungesms.com
> http://www.madeinkenya.org
> http://www.wainainamungai.com
>
> Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
> of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
> being shared. ~ Buddha~
>
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