[kictanet] Expensive software systems?

Wed Jun 25 23:07:04 EAT 2008

Is it really SAP? Do you mean that the company that is developing that 200M software is actually building a SAP like software from ground up in a couple of months? I really doubt. May be they are building software or customizations on top of SAP. From what I've heard SAP is a large software system that has taken years to build and the skill required must be very high.

Note that I did not say ERP when describing SAP and that's because these general terms are really abused nowadays (Go on blame the marketers ;~)). An ERP software can range from something small to something really big and I think SAP falls in the BIG category.

All in all it's been an interesting discussion. I wish we had more information about the systems the government and related bodies are purchasing (with taxes 8~D). We shouldn't have to read them from news articles. The technical details is the sweet spot!

--- On Wed, 6/25/08, Leonard Mware <mleonardo at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Leonard Mware <mleonardo at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems?
To: kiriinya2000 at yahoo.com
Cc: "New Vision List" <newvisionkenya at yahoogroups.com>, "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 9:03 PM

I agree pk. What Wesley was referring to at KPA is actually SAP (if I am not wrong) and one would say there is no local equal. In the absence of understanding their business case that led to that choice it is hard to blame them. On the other hand, it is true some organizations go for systems that are too expensive and maybe they could do with smaller version.  As a matter of interest, the Strathmore customized Open Source system seems more expensive than Microsoft Navision!!  L

pkariuki at gmail.com wrote:  Wesley, I tend to disagree with you a little. 

I believe that that kind of software can be done locally. It's a failure in our educational system. Open Bravo, one of the leading Open Source ERP's is developed by the University of Navarre, in Spain. Software development in universities is one of those projects which
 do not require finance, they only require organisation. Most students have their own PC's anyway, and are involved in their own projects, why not deviate the same to such projects. In this regard, Strathmore University have successfully modified an AMS (Academic Management System) from the same university and are now reselling the same. It think it can be done, it's that we do not have faith in ourselves. FreeBSD was developed by Buffallo University. Andrew Filing System (AFS) that Google use was developed at Carnegie Mellon University. Students are idle always looking for internships, the Universities should allow them to work on such projects, and the students are more then willing to do so by the way. Now JKUAT has roughly 1600 Computer Science and IT students in it's various Campuses. Nairobi has something close to 200 Computer Science Students, surely 1800 minds cannot come up with something? And those are our two leading technology universities?

Secondly, I
 have always got the feeling that many times, people want to walk before they can crawl, and here is where i agree with your points on level 2 and level 3 software. Let the software companies deploy ERP's for SME's, and develop a track record, instead of going after the big company fast, this makes more sense and will earn them money to firm up their capacity.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Leonard Mware wrote:
>
> I have two questions:
> 1. Do we have locally done large scale ERPs in the market that compares with SAP, Navision, BAAN, Oracle Financials?
> 2. How well tested are they? For such a large and mission critical system testing skills and the cost of testing is critical on final cost.
>
> Leonard
> 
>
> Shem Ochuodho wrote:
>>
>> Wesley & Washington,
>> 
>> Very legitimate points raised.
>> 
>> Allow me
 to share a real life experience. While at KPC, we came across two very interesting scenarios. When developing the Corporate ICT Strategy, we shopped around and gathered that possibly only 2 other 'Class A' parastatals and a handful of large private corporations had developed their ICT strategies. In a number of cases for multi-nationals, their strategies had largely been developed from parent organizations overseas. For the 2 local firms (and 1 large MNC), they had spent about KShs 300m to develop their strategies. In the case of KPC, it was done by locals (Kenyans), and it cost in total just under KShs 15m (10m to 'experts' + overheads + taxes).
>> 
>> Yet for those who may be in the know, at the time (2004/05), the KPC ICT Strategy was like an ad-hoc standard (the way the Rwandan ICT Masterplan is to some!). Not only did a number of other strategic parastatals go the same route/or borrow an idea or two from it; at the time, some sections of COMESA and
 NEPAD were considering it for a 'regional template'. Am not belabouring on this to show how excellent it was, but to give comfort that it was as good - if not better - than those which were developed at 20x its cost - and by locals.
>> 
>> At inception, we had a dilemma because we would not have found any local experts with experience in this sector - since KPC was/is perhaps the only refined petroleum pipeline company in the region - so to find 'local experts' who had developed similar strategies was almost out of question. However, Management & Board recognized that there were discrete skills which could be put together to get something close to the desired whole/ideal: there were people who had developed strategies for large corporations (public and/or private), oil companies (the distributors), energy companies (e.g. SCADA is a backbone to all large-scale energy 'transporters', including KPC and KP&LC), etc. So, we went out looking for what at
 the time were considered to be some of the best within Govt, industry (private sector), academia, and civil society (in this case not the NGO Council, but professional associations), etc. In all, we ended up with a team of 15, some of them subscribers on this list. And they did a fantastic job.
>> 
>> Scenario 2: just as the team was winding down, the SCADA system broke down. This wasn't the first time for the system to go done; it had done so a few times before. From info available, whenever this had happened before, we had to turn to a major international firm in this sector domiciled in Canada. Firstly, they would take at least two weeks to arrive to work on the problem. Secondly, every time they came the Corporation would pay KShs 10m minimum, minus overheads (air-fare, hotel accommodation, etc). In this instance, when the ICT-Strategy team was asked if they could work on it, 3 among them came forward to do so. Within 4 days, yes 4 days, the system
 was up and running, and it cost the Corporation only KShs 700k (inclusive of overheads)! Apart from the money and time saving, we had enabled ¡technology transfer/acquisition¢, and if need be, in future, there was local expertise that would be called upon.
>> 
>> In a nutshell, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent 20x more on ICT products and services than is really necessary - especially for the ultra-large projects. ICT development and promotion is not only attractive in the wealth, jobs, efficiency and productivity it creates, but also in the expenses/costs it saves. Would be interesting to know how much as a country we spend to 'import technology' versus what we would need to spend on developing skills that would help us avoid importing some (of course not all) those technologies.
>> 
>> Best rgrds,
>> Shem
>> --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
>>>
>>> From:
 Odhiambo Washington 
>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems?
>>> To: "Shem Ochuodho" 
>>> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" 
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:20 AM
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies > purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? > Like this one for KPA: > http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860 > > This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a > better solution. > > So far this
>>> year I've heard of 3 systems: > 1. KRA > 2. Immigration > 3. KPA. > > This KPA system costs a total of
 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From > the software features described I feel they could have got better value for > their money. > > May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the > list who can shed more light on these systems. > > BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can > suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, > estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just > talking the talk but walking the walk. > > I'll take a shot: > Case 1: > From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: > "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real > time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This 
>>> > makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said > Osero. > > My take: > Analysis: The
 machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M > software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different > qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines > have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the > measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the > hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide > documentation and support to the software developers. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months. > > Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = > 2.88M. > > Case 2: > Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data. > > My take: > Analysis: This is basically from: > 1. Collection
>>> of good requirements from the port. > 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. > 3. Creating the right
 designs from the architecture. > 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation. > > 1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 > months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are > facing, and how well they can describe them. > 3 system/software architects, > 3 months. > 4 system/software designers, 5 > months. > > Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M > (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M > (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M. > > So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. >
>>> Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current > toral of 35.7M. > > OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I > could be very wrong. Hello Kiriinya, This is a very
 interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read
>>> anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake
 such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/

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With Regards,
Phares Kaboro Kariuki,

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve".
George Bernard Shaw

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