[kictanet] Live debate on the ICT bill?

Thu Dec 18 11:55:17 EAT 2008

mmhh. sounds quite yummy...

a must watch I presume.  Hope H.E. will find time and watch as well.

walu.
--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina at madeinkenya.org> wrote:

> From: Wainaina Mungai <wainaina at madeinkenya.org>
> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya communications (amendment) Bill: Is media overacting?
> To: jwalu at yahoo.com
> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 12:41 PM
> Might we be making a step forward....
> 
> I gather all TV stations shall televise the Live Debate on
> the
> Communications Bill tonight from 9:30pm
> 
> The idea is to have Paul Muite, David Makali face off with
> PS Ndemo,
> Hon. Poghisio.
> 
> Maybe we'll reach a middle ground tonight...instead of
> a trying to
> identify a "winner". There should be a point when
> we give an
> take...and maybe, tonight is the night ;-)
> 
> WM
> 
> On 12/17/08, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Gilda,
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Gilda Odera
> <godera at skyweb.co.ke> wrote:
> >
> >>  My greatest concern is that in all this back and
> forth accusations, the
> >> baby will well be thrown with the water.
> >>
> >  ...
> >
> > Given that the ICT industry is in dire need of the
> electronic transaction
> >> and data protection legal frameworks, amongst many
> other things in
> >> the proposed bill, why can't the contentious
> media issues be removed for
> >> further discussion so that other things can
> continue? The ICT industry has
> >> waited too long for this Bill. It was lumped with
> the media acts and now
> >> there is too much at stake. Is it too much to ask
> the Government to remove
> >> the contentious media issues from the Bill so the
> industry does not lose
> >> more time on this?How will those thousands of jobs
> be created if there is
> >> no
> >> agreement on the Bill. And how will media operate
> if the Bill is passed
> >> with
> >> such contentious issues?
> >>
> >
> > I feel you.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Can government meet industry players halfway by
> removing the contentious
> >> issues and letting the Bill be assented to without
> these issues so both
> >> industries do not suffer and delays please. It has
> to be a give and take.
> >>
> >
> > >From other discussants contributions, it appears
> that if the (Executive arm
> > of) government did this it'd be flouting due
> legislative process. i.e.
> > breaking the law. I stand to be corrected.
> >
> > Happy Holidays
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Mike Theuri <mike.theuri at gmail.com>
> >> *To:* Gilda Odera <godera at skyweb.co.ke>
> >> *Cc:* KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions
> <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:47 PM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers]
> >> Kenyacommunications(amendment)Bill: Is media
> overacting?
> >>
> >> Brian,
> >>
> >> I hope that the media and other interested parties
> have taken a cue from
> >> the recent happenings and will now take time to
> study and understand the
> >> bill. Hopefully the media's petition via the
> PM was concrete and included
> >> alternative workable proposals. If it did not, the
> President and anyone
> >> else
> >> involved in taking appropriate action will not
> have much to work with.
> >>
> >> I agree that K24 should be commended for
> demonstrating professionalism and
> >> leadership. A debate cannot be productive if
> opposite sides do not engage
> >> freely and openly, neither can it be helpful if
> either party is not fully
> >> informed so as to understand where the other side
> is coming from. For this
> >> reason the media would do well to understand the
> bill not for the famous
> >> clause but for its provisions and work from that
> standpoint.
> >>
> >> It can also be hoped that all involved will take
> away valuable lessons on
> >> the need to be proactive in the legislative
> process.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:33 AM, Brian Longwe
> <blongwe at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> I could not agree with you more. What we are
> witnessing is rabid calls
> >>> for
> >>> deletion of a legal clause that has been in
> existence since 1998, and
> >>> isn't
> >>> even part of the proposed amendments - without
> a proposed alternative.
> >>>
> >>> It is abundantly clear that neither the media
> practitioners, neither the
> >>> civil society pundits or politicos that are
> baying in the streets have
> >>> really taken time to read through any of this
> legislation, nor consider
> >>> suitable alternatives.
> >>>
> >>> I personally think that this episode will
> serve as a lesson for many -
> >>> knee-jerk, reactionary statements that are
> based on speculation and
> >>> hyperbole can only lead to confusion and
> eventually embarassment.
> >>>
> >>> I give a thumbs up to the likes of K24 who
> have taken a very neutral
> >>> stand
> >>> and chosen to air both sides of the story and
> work more towards
> >>> enlightenment than further fuel the outright
> lies and misrepresentation
> >>> that
> >>> our airwaves have been awash with over the
> past few days.
> >>>
> >>> Brian
> >>>
> >>>   On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Mike
> Theuri
> >>> <mike.theuri at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>   Crystal,
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually, the right to assemble, discuss
> in public and protest was never
> >>>> taken away by the Patriot act. Numerous
> protests and marches have taken
> >>>> place over the Iraq war, Immigration etc
> since then and have been
> >>>> widely covered. Indeed if one was pay a
> visit to the environs of the
> >>>> White
> >>>> house, one will find no shortage of
> protesters demonstrating any number
> >>>> of
> >>>> issues from Guantanamo by dressing in
> orange jump suits and locking
> >>>> themselves in cages, Darfur,  Tibetans
> acting out torture methods, to
> >>>> calling the current US administration
> fascist or for its removal as long
> >>>> as
> >>>> they do not interfere with others freedoms
> by being disruptive. The
> >>>> Patriot Act still stands to date, however
> a few of its provisions
> >>>> have sunset and are no longer in law
> thanks to a refined legislative
> >>>> process
> >>>> that pays attention to constituents views.
> >>>>
> >>>> The separation of powers principle is best
> exemplified in the US. The
> >>>> Judiciary's independence is one that
> should be emulated in Kenya. The
> >>>> fact
> >>>> that unconstitutional laws can be
> challenged and struck down by the
> >>>> courts
> >>>> is itself a protection against the
> infringement of citizen and
> >>>> non-citizens
> >>>> rights. Take for instance cases such as
> that of Bin Laden's driver
> >>>> (Hamdan
> >>>> v. Rumsfeld) or the 5 Algerian Guantanamo
> detainees where the US
> >>>> Government did not win in both cases. The
> fact that members of congress
> >>>> have
> >>>> signaled their intent to restore habeus
> corpus rights to detainees is in
> >>>> itself an indication of standing up for
> principle even when popular
> >>>> opinion
> >>>> may not agree with some principles of
> basic human rights. There is a lot
> >>>> of
> >>>> work and reform to be done locally, in
> ensuring that the different arms
> >>>> of
> >>>> Government can be as independent and those
> who are aggrieved by the
> >>>> legislature at least have an avenue of
> resort in which they can place
> >>>> their
> >>>> confidence to fairly strike down what
> could be considered
> >>>> unconstitutional.
> >>>>
> >>>> At the same time excessive freedom and its
> abuse is dangerous, were
> >>>> Kenya
> >>>> the US, elements of the media who engaged
> in deliberate acts at the
> >>>> beginning of the year would be in court
> today being held civilly liable
> >>>> for
> >>>> their role in inciting violence that led
> to the deaths of civilians.
> >>>> Media
> >>>> elements that act recklessly and carry
> inappropriate content would be
> >>>> paying
> >>>> hefty fines that could easily bankrupt
> them if they chose not change
> >>>> their
> >>>> ways. Yet we find that even with such
> regulations, the US media has a
> >>>> level
> >>>> of freedom that is not quite paralleled
> around the world. I believe it
> >>>> is
> >>>> clear that the contentious section 88 has
> always been present, it is not
> >>>> new, and thus the Government cannot
> possibly be trying to now use it to
> >>>> suppress the people's voices. As with
> every system there need to be
> >>>> checks
> >>>> and balances, the media has called for
> deletion, an approach that faces
> >>>> legal hurdles, but the media has not been
> seen to come up with clear cut
> >>>> alternatives such as amendments that could
> make it very difficult if not
> >>>> impossible for section 88 to be abused,
> these are the checks the media
> >>>> could
> >>>> be lobbying for placement in the
> memorandum. The media fraternity might
> >>>> not
> >>>> be law makers but they could certainly
> spend amounts such as the Ksh. 2m
> >>>> spent on advertising a prayer meeting to
> explain in layman terms what
> >>>> *alternatives* as protections they want to
> be included in the bill. One
> >>>> way
> >>>> or another there will be laws that deal
> with the media, a reality the
> >>>> media
> >>>> should accept and work towards defining
> rather than wishing the
> >>>> inevitable
> >>>> goes away.
> >>>>
> >>>>   On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:23 AM,
> Crystal Watley <
> >>>> crystal at voicesofafrica.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>  The Patriot Act was established in
> the United States in light of
> >>>>> terrorist activities and the Iraqi war
> to silence any public discussion
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> protest. The US government was able to
> make a list of organizations and
> >>>>> people they considered to be
> "terrorists" and to use a variety of means
> >>>>> powers to contain those they believed
> to be "dangerous to US
> >>>>> interests".
> >>>>> This Act was used to arrest many
> peaceful protesters, environmental
> >>>>> activists, and to detain Muslims
> without trial for extended period of
> >>>>> time
> >>>>> at places like Guantanamo Bay. Every
> democratic government must respect
> >>>>> human rights. The Patriot Act was a
> time bound piece of legislature and
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> has thus lapsed. Democratic
> governments should not attempt to use
> >>>>> legislation to suppress the voice of
> the people. Kenya is not the only
> >>>>> country where a minority of the
> population with vested interests have
> >>>>> attempted and have often succeeded to
> dominate and control the
> >>>>> population.
> >>>>> We should learn from the lessons of
> history, rather than repeat the
> >>>>> same
> >>>>> mistakes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Crystal
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 7:35 PM,
> <bitange at jambo.co.ke> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>  David,
> >>>>>> I thought this UK law would make
> our section 88 look like an evening
> >>>>>> game
> >>>>>> of soccer.  From the Independent.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 23 November 2003
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sweeping measures to deal with
> terrorist attacks and other emergencies
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>> to be announced this week, giving
> the Government power to over-ride
> >>>>>> civil
> >>>>>> liberties in times of crisis, and
> evacuate threatened areas, restrict
> >>>>>> people's movements and
> confiscate property.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The Civil Contingencies Bill,
> which covers every kind of disaster from
> >>>>>> terrorism to the weather, will be
> the biggest shake-up of emergency
> >>>>>> laws
> >>>>>> since the early part of the last
> century, replacing legislation which
> >>>>>> saw
> >>>>>> the UK through a world war and the
> IRA bombing campaign.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Some of the proposals in the draft
> version of the Bill, drawn up in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> summer, have alarmed civil rights
> activists, notably a clause that
> >>>>>> gives
> >>>>>> the Government the power to
> suspend parts or all of the Human Rights
> >>>>>> Act
> >>>>>> without a vote by MPs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Once an emergency has been
> proclaimed by the Queen, the Government can
> >>>>>> order the destruction of property,
> order people to evacuate an area or
> >>>>>> ban
> >>>>>> them from travelling, and
> "prohibit assemblies of specified kinds" and
> >>>>>> "other specified
> activities".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If these rules had been in force
> during the Iraq war, critics say,
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>> could have been used to to ban
> street demonstrations, making anyone
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>> travelled to protest guilty of a
> criminal offence. After a major
> >>>>>> terrorist
> >>>>>> attack, forums made up of local
> councils, the emergency services and
> >>>>>> utility companies would be put in
> charge of trying to get shattered
> >>>>>> communities back together.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ndemo.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> > Ok. Thanks.
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > Sent from my BlackBerry(R)
> wireless device
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> > From: bitange at jambo.co.ke
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008
> 19:12:04
> >>>>>> > To: <dmakali at yahoo.com>
> >>>>>> > Cc:
> <bitange at jambo.co.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy
> >>>>>> >
> Discussions<kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [kictanet]
> [ke-internetusers] Kenya
> >>>>>> >     
> communications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > David,
> >>>>>> > There was a hitch.  It will
> be in all papers tomorrow and will
> >>>>>> > ensure
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>> > get the soft copy.
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > Ndemo.
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> >>
> >>>>>> >> I have treid to find the
> amended bill online with no success; was
> >>>>>> >> it
> >>>>>> >> uploaded as promised?
> someone please?
> >>>>>> >> david
> >>>>>> >>
> >>>>>> >>
> >>>>>> >> _______________
> >>>>>> >>
> >>>>>> >> "If my doctor told
> me I had only six minutes to live,
> >>>>>> >> I wouldn't brood.
> I'd type a little faster."
> >>>>>> >> â€" Isaac Asimo,
> Columbian Author and Scientist
> >>>>>> >> _______________
> >>>>>> >>
> >>>>>> >> PO Box 3234
> >>>>>> >> 00200 Nairobi, Kenya
> >>>>>> >> cell: +254 722 517 540
> >>>>>> >>
> >>>>>> >>
> >>>>>> >> --- On Mon, 12/15/08,
> bitange at jambo.co.ke <bitange at jambo.co.ke>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> >>
> >>>>>> >>> From:
> bitange at jambo.co.ke <bitange at jambo.co.ke>
> >>>>>> >>> Subject: Re:
> [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya
> >>>>>> >>>
> communications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
> >>>>>> >>> To: dmakali at yahoo.com
> >>>>>> >>> Cc: "KICTAnet
> ICT Policy Discussions" <
> >>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> >>>>>> >>> Date: Monday,
> December 15, 2008, 1:04 AM
> >>>>>> >>> Mike,
> >>>>>> >>> Thank you for your
> objective views.  You know very well
> >>>>>> >>> that there are
> >>>>>> >>> thousands of youth
> out there who have patiently waited for
> >>>>>> >>> this bill to
> >>>>>> >>> allow them trade
> on-line.  Now Media calls theirs.
> >>>>>> >>>
> >>>>>> >>> The outcomes of the
> Kriegler and Waki would hopefully deal
> >>>>>> >>> with political
> >>>>>> >>> impunity.  Who will
> deal with media impunity?  In my view
> >>>>>> >>> we must push
> >>>>>> >>> this Bill to ensure
> that electronic media does not continue
> >>>>>> >>> to corrupt our
> >>>>>> >>> children's minds.
> >>>>>> >>>
> >>>>>> >>> Ndemo.
> >>>>>> >>>
> >>>>>> >>>
> >>>>>> >>> > Dr. Ndemo,
> >>>>>> >>> >
> >>>>>> >>> > I hope that the
> media note that they are on the wrong
> >>>>>> >>> path and move to
> >>>>>> >>> > change their
> approach. In hindsight they might realize
> >>>>>> >>> that the issues at
> >>>>>> >>> > hand could have
> been tackled differently.The
> >>>>>> >>> media's most
> recent actions
> >>>>>> >>> > only make it
> more difficult to resolve the very same
> >>>>>> >>> issues they are
> >>>>>> >>> > protesting.
> >>>>>> >>> >
> >>>>>> >>> > The Nation's
> editorial perhaps represents the
> >>>>>> >>> divergence in views
> between
> >>>>>> >>> > the media
> owners, their supporters and responsible
> >>>>>> >>> journalists who may
> >>>>>> >>> > have
> >>>>>> >>> > seen that things
> are steering in a dangerous
> >>>>>> >>> direction. As the
> matter
> >>>>>> >>> > drags
> >>>>>> >>> > on, various
> elements will try to take advantage and
> >>>>>> >>> jump onto the
> >>>>>> >>> > bandwagon
> >>>>>> >>> > to further
> certain agendas. It is this catalyst that
> >>>>>> >>> is worrisome, as
> >>>>>> >>> > there
> >>>>>> >>> > is the
> possibility that just as the media issue has
> >>>>>> >>> somehow been tied to
> >>>>>> >>> > economic issues,
> the media issue could easily be
> >>>>>> >>> misused by those who
> have
> >>>>>> >>> > little to do
> with the media.
> >>>>>> >>> >
> >>>>>> >>> > The country has
> many volatile problems that should not
> >>>>>> >>> be exploited, some
> >>>>>> >>> > of
> >>>>>> >>> > those jumping
> onto the media bandwagon may be seeking
> >>>>>> >>> to detract from
> >>>>>> >>> > matters facing
> them, others have personal agendas in
> >>>>>> >>> mind that can only
> >>>>>> >>> > progress if they
> are disguised as media and economic
> >>>>>> >>> issues. The media
> >>>>>> >>> > hopefully is
> looking at these issues in a responsible
> >>>>>> >>> manner, will
> >>>>>> >>> > exercise
> >>>>>> >>> > diplomacy and
> engage the Government in a civil way as
> >>>>>> >>> the best way to
> >>>>>> >>> > resolve the
> impasse. There are many Kenyans suffering
> >>>>>> >>> today from matters
> >>>>>> >>> > not
> >>>>>> >>> > within their
> control, it is a dangerous thing for the
> >>>>>> >>> media to act in a
> >>>>>> >>> > way
> >>>>>> >>> > that could
> easily stir these masses to non-civil
> >>>>>> >>> action as measures
> are
> >>>>>> >>> > being taken to
> alleviate these problems. The media has
> >>>>>> >>> a corporate
> >>>>>> >>> > responsibility
> in ensuring that it exhausts all civil
> >>>>>> >>> means of ensuring
> >>>>>> >>> > the
> >>>>>> >>> > matters are
> resolved.
> >>>>>> >>> >
> >>>>>> >>> > It is
> encouraging to know that the Government is open
> >>>>>> >>> for discussion, but
> >>>>>> >>> > there is only so
> much that the Government can do on
> >>>>>> >>> legislative matters.
> >>>>>> >>> > The
> >>>>>> >>> > Government can
> draft, prepare and adjust laws but it
> >>>>>> >>> cannot pass the same
> >>>>>> >>> > in
> >>>>>> >>> > parliament. The
> media must do more on its own in
> >>>>>> >>> approaching not just
> key
> >>>>>> >>> > leaders but
> ultimately the legislators who actually
> >>>>>> >>> vote to pass the same
> >>>>>> >>> > laws.
> >>>>>> >>> >
> >>>>>> >>> >
> >>>>>> >>> > On Sun, Dec 14,
> 2008 at 5:11 PM,
> >>>>>> >>>
> <bitange at jambo.co.ke> wrote:
> >>>>>> >>> >
> >>>>>> >>> >> Thanks
> Theuri,
> >>>>>> >>> >> Since
> Government is open for discussion, diplomacy
> >>>>>> >>> would yield better
> >>>>>> >>> >> results.  I
> have seen their action plan which by
> >>>>>> >>> the way violates cck
> >>>>>> >>> >> licence
> agreement it is not the best rout to take.
> >>>>>> >>>  Having spent all
> >>>>>> >>> >> weekend
> >>>>>> >>> >> using public
> resources (frequencies) to propagate
> >>>>>> >>> violence, they should
> >>>>>> >>> >> at
> >>>>>> >>> >> least wait
> to hear from cck.
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> >>>>>> >>> >> If you read
> today's Nation editorial on how to
> >>>>>> >>> end impunity
> including
> >>>>>> >>> >> media
> >>>>>> >>> >> impunity you
> wonder if they are the same people
> >>>>>> >>> inciting the public
> to
> >>>>>> >>> >> violence.
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> >>>>>> >>> >> Ndemo
> >>>>>> >>> >> Sent from my
> BlackBerry(R)
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> >>> >> From:
> "Mike Theuri"
> >>>>>> >>>
> <mike.theuri at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> >>>>>> >>> >> Date: Sun,
> 14 Dec 2008 13:19:01
> >>>>>> >>> >> To:
> <bitange at jambo.co.ke>
> >>>>>> >>> >> Cc: KICTAnet
> ICT Policy
> >>>>>> >>>
> Discussions<kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> >>>>>> >>> >> Subject: Re:
> [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya
> >>>>>> >>> communications
> >>>>>> >>> >>       
> (amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> >>> >> kictanet
> mailing list
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
> >>>>>> >>> >>
> >>>>>> >>>
> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
> >>>>>> >>> >>
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> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> kictanet mailing list
> >>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This message was sent to:
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Crystal "Naliaka" Watley
> >>>>> Voices of Africa
> >>>>> crystal at voicesofafrica.org
> >>>>> http://www.voicesofafrica.org/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "You must be the change you wish
> to see" - Gandhi
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> kictanet mailing list
> >>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
> >>>>>
> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This message was sent to:
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> kictanet mailing list
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