[kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya communications (amendment) Bill: Is media overacting?

Wainaina Mungai wainaina at madeinkenya.org
Thu Dec 18 11:41:10 EAT 2008 

Might we be making a step forward....

I gather all TV stations shall televise the Live Debate on the
Communications Bill tonight from 9:30pm

The idea is to have Paul Muite, David Makali face off with PS Ndemo,
Hon. Poghisio.

Maybe we'll reach a middle ground tonight...instead of a trying to
identify a "winner". There should be a point when we give an
take...and maybe, tonight is the night ;-)

WM

On 12/17/08, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Gilda,
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Gilda Odera <godera at skyweb.co.ke> wrote:
>
>>  My greatest concern is that in all this back and forth accusations, the
>> baby will well be thrown with the water.
>>
>  ...
>
> Given that the ICT industry is in dire need of the electronic transaction
>> and data protection legal frameworks, amongst many other things in
>> the proposed bill, why can't the contentious media issues be removed for
>> further discussion so that other things can continue? The ICT industry has
>> waited too long for this Bill. It was lumped with the media acts and now
>> there is too much at stake. Is it too much to ask the Government to remove
>> the contentious media issues from the Bill so the industry does not lose
>> more time on this?How will those thousands of jobs be created if there is
>> no
>> agreement on the Bill. And how will media operate if the Bill is passed
>> with
>> such contentious issues?
>>
>
> I feel you.
>
>
>
>> Can government meet industry players halfway by removing the contentious
>> issues and letting the Bill be assented to without these issues so both
>> industries do not suffer and delays please. It has to be a give and take.
>>
>
> >From other discussants contributions, it appears that if the (Executive arm
> of) government did this it'd be flouting due legislative process. i.e.
> breaking the law. I stand to be corrected.
>
> Happy Holidays
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Mike Theuri <mike.theuri at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Gilda Odera <godera at skyweb.co.ke>
>> *Cc:* KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:47 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers]
>> Kenyacommunications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> I hope that the media and other interested parties have taken a cue from
>> the recent happenings and will now take time to study and understand the
>> bill. Hopefully the media's petition via the PM was concrete and included
>> alternative workable proposals. If it did not, the President and anyone
>> else
>> involved in taking appropriate action will not have much to work with.
>>
>> I agree that K24 should be commended for demonstrating professionalism and
>> leadership. A debate cannot be productive if opposite sides do not engage
>> freely and openly, neither can it be helpful if either party is not fully
>> informed so as to understand where the other side is coming from. For this
>> reason the media would do well to understand the bill not for the famous
>> clause but for its provisions and work from that standpoint.
>>
>> It can also be hoped that all involved will take away valuable lessons on
>> the need to be proactive in the legislative process.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:33 AM, Brian Longwe <blongwe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I could not agree with you more. What we are witnessing is rabid calls
>>> for
>>> deletion of a legal clause that has been in existence since 1998, and
>>> isn't
>>> even part of the proposed amendments - without a proposed alternative.
>>>
>>> It is abundantly clear that neither the media practitioners, neither the
>>> civil society pundits or politicos that are baying in the streets have
>>> really taken time to read through any of this legislation, nor consider
>>> suitable alternatives.
>>>
>>> I personally think that this episode will serve as a lesson for many -
>>> knee-jerk, reactionary statements that are based on speculation and
>>> hyperbole can only lead to confusion and eventually embarassment.
>>>
>>> I give a thumbs up to the likes of K24 who have taken a very neutral
>>> stand
>>> and chosen to air both sides of the story and work more towards
>>> enlightenment than further fuel the outright lies and misrepresentation
>>> that
>>> our airwaves have been awash with over the past few days.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>   On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Mike Theuri
>>> <mike.theuri at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Crystal,
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the right to assemble, discuss in public and protest was never
>>>> taken away by the Patriot act. Numerous protests and marches have taken
>>>> place over the Iraq war, Immigration etc since then and have been
>>>> widely covered. Indeed if one was pay a visit to the environs of the
>>>> White
>>>> house, one will find no shortage of protesters demonstrating any number
>>>> of
>>>> issues from Guantanamo by dressing in orange jump suits and locking
>>>> themselves in cages, Darfur,  Tibetans acting out torture methods, to
>>>> calling the current US administration fascist or for its removal as long
>>>> as
>>>> they do not interfere with others freedoms by being disruptive. The
>>>> Patriot Act still stands to date, however a few of its provisions
>>>> have sunset and are no longer in law thanks to a refined legislative
>>>> process
>>>> that pays attention to constituents views.
>>>>
>>>> The separation of powers principle is best exemplified in the US. The
>>>> Judiciary's independence is one that should be emulated in Kenya. The
>>>> fact
>>>> that unconstitutional laws can be challenged and struck down by the
>>>> courts
>>>> is itself a protection against the infringement of citizen and
>>>> non-citizens
>>>> rights. Take for instance cases such as that of Bin Laden's driver
>>>> (Hamdan
>>>> v. Rumsfeld) or the 5 Algerian Guantanamo detainees where the US
>>>> Government did not win in both cases. The fact that members of congress
>>>> have
>>>> signaled their intent to restore habeus corpus rights to detainees is in
>>>> itself an indication of standing up for principle even when popular
>>>> opinion
>>>> may not agree with some principles of basic human rights. There is a lot
>>>> of
>>>> work and reform to be done locally, in ensuring that the different arms
>>>> of
>>>> Government can be as independent and those who are aggrieved by the
>>>> legislature at least have an avenue of resort in which they can place
>>>> their
>>>> confidence to fairly strike down what could be considered
>>>> unconstitutional.
>>>>
>>>> At the same time excessive freedom and its abuse is dangerous, were
>>>> Kenya
>>>> the US, elements of the media who engaged in deliberate acts at the
>>>> beginning of the year would be in court today being held civilly liable
>>>> for
>>>> their role in inciting violence that led to the deaths of civilians.
>>>> Media
>>>> elements that act recklessly and carry inappropriate content would be
>>>> paying
>>>> hefty fines that could easily bankrupt them if they chose not change
>>>> their
>>>> ways. Yet we find that even with such regulations, the US media has a
>>>> level
>>>> of freedom that is not quite paralleled around the world. I believe it
>>>> is
>>>> clear that the contentious section 88 has always been present, it is not
>>>> new, and thus the Government cannot possibly be trying to now use it to
>>>> suppress the people's voices. As with every system there need to be
>>>> checks
>>>> and balances, the media has called for deletion, an approach that faces
>>>> legal hurdles, but the media has not been seen to come up with clear cut
>>>> alternatives such as amendments that could make it very difficult if not
>>>> impossible for section 88 to be abused, these are the checks the media
>>>> could
>>>> be lobbying for placement in the memorandum. The media fraternity might
>>>> not
>>>> be law makers but they could certainly spend amounts such as the Ksh. 2m
>>>> spent on advertising a prayer meeting to explain in layman terms what
>>>> *alternatives* as protections they want to be included in the bill. One
>>>> way
>>>> or another there will be laws that deal with the media, a reality the
>>>> media
>>>> should accept and work towards defining rather than wishing the
>>>> inevitable
>>>> goes away.
>>>>
>>>>   On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Crystal Watley <
>>>> crystal at voicesofafrica.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  The Patriot Act was established in the United States in light of
>>>>> terrorist activities and the Iraqi war to silence any public discussion
>>>>> or
>>>>> protest. The US government was able to make a list of organizations and
>>>>> people they considered to be "terrorists" and to use a variety of means
>>>>> powers to contain those they believed to be "dangerous to US
>>>>> interests".
>>>>> This Act was used to arrest many peaceful protesters, environmental
>>>>> activists, and to detain Muslims without trial for extended period of
>>>>> time
>>>>> at places like Guantanamo Bay. Every democratic government must respect
>>>>> human rights. The Patriot Act was a time bound piece of legislature and
>>>>> it
>>>>> has thus lapsed. Democratic governments should not attempt to use
>>>>> legislation to suppress the voice of the people. Kenya is not the only
>>>>> country where a minority of the population with vested interests have
>>>>> attempted and have often succeeded to dominate and control the
>>>>> population.
>>>>> We should learn from the lessons of history, rather than repeat the
>>>>> same
>>>>> mistakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Crystal
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 7:35 PM, <bitange at jambo.co.ke> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  David,
>>>>>> I thought this UK law would make our section 88 look like an evening
>>>>>> game
>>>>>> of soccer.  From the Independent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 23 November 2003
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sweeping measures to deal with terrorist attacks and other emergencies
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> to be announced this week, giving the Government power to over-ride
>>>>>> civil
>>>>>> liberties in times of crisis, and evacuate threatened areas, restrict
>>>>>> people's movements and confiscate property.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Civil Contingencies Bill, which covers every kind of disaster from
>>>>>> terrorism to the weather, will be the biggest shake-up of emergency
>>>>>> laws
>>>>>> since the early part of the last century, replacing legislation which
>>>>>> saw
>>>>>> the UK through a world war and the IRA bombing campaign.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of the proposals in the draft version of the Bill, drawn up in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> summer, have alarmed civil rights activists, notably a clause that
>>>>>> gives
>>>>>> the Government the power to suspend parts or all of the Human Rights
>>>>>> Act
>>>>>> without a vote by MPs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once an emergency has been proclaimed by the Queen, the Government can
>>>>>> order the destruction of property, order people to evacuate an area or
>>>>>> ban
>>>>>> them from travelling, and "prohibit assemblies of specified kinds" and
>>>>>> "other specified activities".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If these rules had been in force during the Iraq war, critics say,
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> could have been used to to ban street demonstrations, making anyone
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> travelled to protest guilty of a criminal offence. After a major
>>>>>> terrorist
>>>>>> attack, forums made up of local councils, the emergency services and
>>>>>> utility companies would be put in charge of trying to get shattered
>>>>>> communities back together.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ndemo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Ok. Thanks.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Sent from my BlackBerry(R) wireless device
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> > From: bitange at jambo.co.ke
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:12:04
>>>>>> > To: <dmakali at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> > Cc: <bitange at jambo.co.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy
>>>>>> > Discussions<kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya
>>>>>> >      communications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > David,
>>>>>> > There was a hitch.  It will be in all papers tomorrow and will
>>>>>> > ensure
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> > get the soft copy.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Ndemo.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I have treid to find the amended bill online with no success; was
>>>>>> >> it
>>>>>> >> uploaded as promised? someone please?
>>>>>> >> david
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> "If my doctor told me I had only six minutes to live,
>>>>>> >> I wouldn't brood. I'd type a little faster."
>>>>>> >> â€" Isaac Asimo, Columbian Author and Scientist
>>>>>> >> _______________
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> PO Box 3234
>>>>>> >> 00200 Nairobi, Kenya
>>>>>> >> cell: +254 722 517 540
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --- On Mon, 12/15/08, bitange at jambo.co.ke <bitange at jambo.co.ke>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> From: bitange at jambo.co.ke <bitange at jambo.co.ke>
>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya
>>>>>> >>> communications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
>>>>>> >>> To: dmakali at yahoo.com
>>>>>> >>> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <
>>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>>>>>> >>> Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 1:04 AM
>>>>>> >>> Mike,
>>>>>> >>> Thank you for your objective views.  You know very well
>>>>>> >>> that there are
>>>>>> >>> thousands of youth out there who have patiently waited for
>>>>>> >>> this bill to
>>>>>> >>> allow them trade on-line.  Now Media calls theirs.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> The outcomes of the Kriegler and Waki would hopefully deal
>>>>>> >>> with political
>>>>>> >>> impunity.  Who will deal with media impunity?  In my view
>>>>>> >>> we must push
>>>>>> >>> this Bill to ensure that electronic media does not continue
>>>>>> >>> to corrupt our
>>>>>> >>> children's minds.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Ndemo.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> > Dr. Ndemo,
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > I hope that the media note that they are on the wrong
>>>>>> >>> path and move to
>>>>>> >>> > change their approach. In hindsight they might realize
>>>>>> >>> that the issues at
>>>>>> >>> > hand could have been tackled differently.The
>>>>>> >>> media's most recent actions
>>>>>> >>> > only make it more difficult to resolve the very same
>>>>>> >>> issues they are
>>>>>> >>> > protesting.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > The Nation's editorial perhaps represents the
>>>>>> >>> divergence in views between
>>>>>> >>> > the media owners, their supporters and responsible
>>>>>> >>> journalists who may
>>>>>> >>> > have
>>>>>> >>> > seen that things are steering in a dangerous
>>>>>> >>> direction. As the matter
>>>>>> >>> > drags
>>>>>> >>> > on, various elements will try to take advantage and
>>>>>> >>> jump onto the
>>>>>> >>> > bandwagon
>>>>>> >>> > to further certain agendas. It is this catalyst that
>>>>>> >>> is worrisome, as
>>>>>> >>> > there
>>>>>> >>> > is the possibility that just as the media issue has
>>>>>> >>> somehow been tied to
>>>>>> >>> > economic issues, the media issue could easily be
>>>>>> >>> misused by those who have
>>>>>> >>> > little to do with the media.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > The country has many volatile problems that should not
>>>>>> >>> be exploited, some
>>>>>> >>> > of
>>>>>> >>> > those jumping onto the media bandwagon may be seeking
>>>>>> >>> to detract from
>>>>>> >>> > matters facing them, others have personal agendas in
>>>>>> >>> mind that can only
>>>>>> >>> > progress if they are disguised as media and economic
>>>>>> >>> issues. The media
>>>>>> >>> > hopefully is looking at these issues in a responsible
>>>>>> >>> manner, will
>>>>>> >>> > exercise
>>>>>> >>> > diplomacy and engage the Government in a civil way as
>>>>>> >>> the best way to
>>>>>> >>> > resolve the impasse. There are many Kenyans suffering
>>>>>> >>> today from matters
>>>>>> >>> > not
>>>>>> >>> > within their control, it is a dangerous thing for the
>>>>>> >>> media to act in a
>>>>>> >>> > way
>>>>>> >>> > that could easily stir these masses to non-civil
>>>>>> >>> action as measures are
>>>>>> >>> > being taken to alleviate these problems. The media has
>>>>>> >>> a corporate
>>>>>> >>> > responsibility in ensuring that it exhausts all civil
>>>>>> >>> means of ensuring
>>>>>> >>> > the
>>>>>> >>> > matters are resolved.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > It is encouraging to know that the Government is open
>>>>>> >>> for discussion, but
>>>>>> >>> > there is only so much that the Government can do on
>>>>>> >>> legislative matters.
>>>>>> >>> > The
>>>>>> >>> > Government can draft, prepare and adjust laws but it
>>>>>> >>> cannot pass the same
>>>>>> >>> > in
>>>>>> >>> > parliament. The media must do more on its own in
>>>>>> >>> approaching not just key
>>>>>> >>> > leaders but ultimately the legislators who actually
>>>>>> >>> vote to pass the same
>>>>>> >>> > laws.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 5:11 PM,
>>>>>> >>> <bitange at jambo.co.ke> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >> Thanks Theuri,
>>>>>> >>> >> Since Government is open for discussion, diplomacy
>>>>>> >>> would yield better
>>>>>> >>> >> results.  I have seen their action plan which by
>>>>>> >>> the way violates cck
>>>>>> >>> >> licence agreement it is not the best rout to take.
>>>>>> >>>  Having spent all
>>>>>> >>> >> weekend
>>>>>> >>> >> using public resources (frequencies) to propagate
>>>>>> >>> violence, they should
>>>>>> >>> >> at
>>>>>> >>> >> least wait to hear from cck.
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> If you read today's Nation editorial on how to
>>>>>> >>> end impunity including
>>>>>> >>> >> media
>>>>>> >>> >> impunity you wonder if they are the same people
>>>>>> >>> inciting the public to
>>>>>> >>> >> violence.
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> Ndemo
>>>>>> >>> >> Sent from my BlackBerry(R)
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>> >> From: "Mike Theuri"
>>>>>> >>> <mike.theuri at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:19:01
>>>>>> >>> >> To: <bitange at jambo.co.ke>
>>>>>> >>> >> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy
>>>>>> >>> Discussions<kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>>>>>> >>> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya
>>>>>> >>> communications
>>>>>> >>> >>        (amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> >> kictanet mailing list
>>>>>> >>> >> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> This message was sent to: bitange at jambo.co.ke
>>>>>> >>> >> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bitange%40jambo.co.ke
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >
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>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> >>
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>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> kictanet mailing list
>>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>>>>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This message was sent to: crystal at voicesofafrica.org
>>>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>>>>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/crystal%40voicesofafrica.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Crystal "Naliaka" Watley
>>>>> Voices of Africa
>>>>> crystal at voicesofafrica.org
>>>>> http://www.voicesofafrica.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> "You must be the change you wish to see" - Gandhi
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> kictanet mailing list
>>>>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>>>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>>>>>
>>>>> This message was sent to: mike.theuri at gmail.com
>>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>>>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mike.theuri%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> kictanet mailing list
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>>>> This message was sent to: blongwe at gmail.com
>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brian Munyao Longwe
>>> e-mail: blongwe at gmail.com
>>> cell:  + 254 722 518 744
>>> blog : http://zinjlog.blogspot.com
>>> meta-blog: http://mashilingi.blogspot.com
>>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
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