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        <div>There's a lot of strawman arguments against taxation. It shouldn't be a one size fits all.</div><div><br></div><div>Tech Taxation policy should be dynamic and informed by the projected costs of the downstream burdens created by apps. </div><div><br></div><div>Do they raise the cost of security e.g. by making it easy to commit crimes or create chaos through disinformation? Tax them.</div><div><br></div><div>Do they have only positive benefits and help create jobs, boosting local economy? Don't tax.</div><div><br></div><div>Do they play psychological tricks on our young people to turn them into screen addicts or narcissists with negative impact on development, learning and productivity? Tax heavily.</div><div><br></div><div>Do they prey on juveniles and encourage pedophiles or child exploitation? Ban them.</div><div><br></div><div>Its not really as complicated as the silicon valley lobbyists would want us to believe.</div><div><br></div><div>:-)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
        
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                    On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 1:32:42 PM GMT+3, Mark Elkins via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
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    <p>By extending this logic - then you would suggest we tax anyone
      using Gmail, or anyone hosting their web site or email services in
      another country? Gmail is also an "Over The Top" service.<br clear="none">
    </p>
    <p>WhatsApp hurts telecom companies - because telecom companies
      (mobile cell and fixed wire) made money from SMS's and Voice
      services. It hurts because WhatsApp works well and is innovative -
      you can use it (and many other similar services) to send Text,
      Pictures, Documents, Video, Voice Memo's and make voice calls.
      What you are perhaps suggesting is all innovation should be taxed?</p>
    <p>Perhaps its time that the legacy telecom companies became more
      innovative themselves or simply provide the connectivity (and
      there is still lots of opportunity there). Voice and Text is just
      data. Data providers are taxed locally. Data usage is increasing
      so I presume Data companies are paying more and more tax.</p>
    <p>As to abusive use (by any message conveying system) - humans will
      continue to be "harmful" and unfortunately will choose the easiest
      form of communications in order to group together - unless they
      have no reason to do so. I've no idea how to change human nature
      but I guess working on reasons for people to not become "harmful"
      would be a valid step. Difficult.<br clear="none">
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    <div class="ydp85810377yiv7037700816moz-cite-prefix">On 11/06/2018 09:43 AM, evelyne wanjiku
      via kictanet wrote:<br clear="none">
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        <div>Dear All,</div>
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        <div>In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input. <br clear="none">
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        <div>The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This
          is because they make money from us trade in our data and the
          revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given
          that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in
          Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on
          its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our
          countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest
          option for our government becomes the easy route which is
          taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for
          those who use social media for productive activities.
          Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in
          getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from
          considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider
          that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means
          that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing
          voice services. Considering that these companies are locally
          based and pay taxes to our government, why should their
          revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I
          suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that
          block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their
          borders.  <br clear="none">
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        <div>As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true
          and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this
          fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries
          where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly
          through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of
          many people.  Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to
          ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from
          their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as
          to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research
          in this area. <br clear="none">
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        <div>The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp
          to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and
          the consequences that follow?  Should government have a role
          in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful
          activities. Overall what is the role of government and the
          various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are
          used responsibly?</div>
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        <div>Good day to all<br clear="none">
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          <div> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis
            Monyango via kictanet <a shape="rect" class="ydp85810377yiv7037700816moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke></a>
            wrote: </div>
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                  <div>Morning Mr Patrick Maina,
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                    <div>You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake
                      news, crime and other things. You also lay
                      peace,development on a scale versus human rights
                      such as free speech and privacy. </div>
                    <div>Sir, it is good to be objective and factual.
                      Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics.
                      Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not
                      attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the
                      internet. Hence this tired line of the country
                      going into flames because of the internet
                      (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The
                      number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and
                      other factors such as social class of users, bots
                      affect the impact of the internet in democratic
                      transitions. The broadcast media shut down in
                      January should tell which communication medium has
                      more impact on the Kenyan society. ðŸ˜‰</div>
                    <div> </div>
                    <div>I believe your intention was to state why
                      companies that offer over the top services should
                      pay taxes here. That is a different argument all
                      together with a different set of facts unless you
                      are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to
                      be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and
                      lies' just like in Uganda.</div>
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                        <div dir="ltr">On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick
                          A. M. Maina via kictanet, <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>>
                          wrote:<br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">These
                                messaging apps facilitate fake news,
                                crime, foreign meddling (to subvert
                                democracy), brainwashing and hate speech
                                on a massive scale. We know this for a
                                fact. </div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So as
                                citizens and stakeholders in our
                                country, we need to ask: what do we
                                value more, is it things that improve
                                peace, stability, economic development
                                and democracy, OR, is it some utopian,
                                unbounded notion of free speech and
                                privacy that is disconnected from our
                                contextual reality (e.g. protects
                                criminals, malicious defamers and
                                violence mongers in equal proportion as
                                law abiding citizens)?</div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The
                                companies running these uncontrolled
                                messaging platforms will not be impacted
                                if our country goes up in flames. They
                                cost governments tons of money in
                                maintaining internal security
                                (especially during democratic
                                transitions - sometimes to existential
                                levels) yet they don't pay any taxes...
                                and mark you, they are *billion dollar*
                                companies! This also means that funds
                                that ought to have bought, say, medicine
                                to save lives gets diverted to fix an
                                *imported problem* with no path to
                                holding the parent company accountable
                                for damage caused.</div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Gok needs to
                                modernize our tax laws, which currently
                                are based on the traditional "for
                                profit" enterprise model and thus out of
                                touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses
                                by design" model. The basic assumption
                                that entrepreneurship is a profit
                                oriented endeavour does not hold for
                                Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies.
                                They are designed to operate as loss
                                makers for decades (but still move
                                *massive* amounts of financial resources
                                at massive scale). This has the
                                technical effect of *tax avoidance*
                                because massive profits *are* still
                                being made by the offshore VCs - which
                                denies governments billions in taxes
                                (despite imposing local burdens as
                                illustrated above). </div>
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">A smart
                                government would create modernized laws
                                to tax VC funded Silicon Valley
                                companies e.g. on the basis of *funding
                                rounds* and *valuations* because this is
                                their *real* business i.e. its how the
                                investors intend to make money from day
                                one - and the primary reason they push
                                for perpetual losses!</div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">There should
                                also be a turnover tax and VAT on online
                                revenue earned in Kenya by foreign
                                billion dollar internet companies (e.g.
                                advertisement revenue and appstore
                                revenue), to level the tax playing field
                                for local businesses. Similar to what
                                other countries like the UK are working
                                on: </div>
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                              <div><font face="Helvetica Neue,                                   Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:16px;"><a shape="rect" href="https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill</a></span></font><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">CA will
                                obviously have a hard time monitoring
                                and enforcing though, under the current
                                traditional framework due to technical
                                barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due
                                to jurisdictional challenges. </div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So the other
                                thing that CA really needs to do once
                                the rules are set is to consider
                                blocking non-compliant foreign apps
                                completely at ISP level (especially now
                                that political temperatures are cool and
                                people and thinking clearly). Lets have
                                local startups filling any gaps with
                                copycat apps China-style. </div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">To be clear,
                                I support free speech and privacy. But I
                                also support peace, stability, safe
                                neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty
                                and economic predictability!</div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">A delicate
                                balance is needed to maximise the rights
                                of law abiding citizens while minimising
                                the ability of those with evil intent to
                                exploit basic rights in order to harm
                                the innocent.</div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
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                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Good day.</div>
                              <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Patrick.</div>
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                                  <div> On Thursday, November 1, 2018,
                                    11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga
                                    via kictanet <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>>
                                    wrote: </div>
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                                          <p style="margin-bottom:15.6px;color:rgb(93,93,93);font-size:17px;font-family:georgia, century w01;line-height:25px;">Kenya
                                            is considering regulating
                                            online services such as
                                            WhatsApp and Skype in a
                                            radical move that could
                                            force the internet-based
                                            service providers to share
                                            data with the government.</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p style="color:rgb(93,93,93);font-family:georgia, century w01;font-size:17px;margin-bottom:15.6px;line-height:25px;">The
                                            Communications Authority of
                                            Kenya (CA) is in search of a
                                            consultant to study and
                                            determine how the so-called
                                            over-the-top services (OTTS)
                                            operated by groups such as
                                            Facebook, which runs
                                            WhatsApp, and Skype owner
                                            Microsoft, could be
                                            regulated.</p>
                                          <font color="#333333" face="colfaxregular,                                             avantgardegothicitcw01b                                             731069, nimbus sans tw01,                                             Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:16px;">Read
                                              on: <a shape="rect" href="https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html</a></span></font><br clear="none">
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                                        Best regards<br clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
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                                        Githaiga, Grace<br clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
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                                          Kenya ICT Action Network
                                          (KICTANet)<br clear="none">
                                          Twitter:@ggithaiga<br clear="none">
                                          Tel: 254722701495<br clear="none">
                                          Skype: gracegithaiga<br clear="none">
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                                          "Change only happens when
                                          ordinary people get involved,
                                          get engaged and come together
                                          to demand it. I am asking you
                                          to believe. Not in my ability
                                          to bring about change â€“ but in
                                          yours"---Barrack Obama.</div>
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                                    The Kenya ICT Action Network
                                    (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
                                    platform for people and institutions
                                    interested and involved in ICT
                                    policy and regulation. The network
                                    aims to act as a catalyst for reform
                                    in the ICT sector in support of the
                                    national aim of ICT enabled growth
                                    and development.<br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same
                                    standards of acceptable behaviors
                                    online that you follow in real life:
                                    respect people's times and
                                    bandwidth, share knowledge, don't
                                    flame or abuse or personalize,
                                    respect privacy, do not spam, do not
                                    market your wares or qualifications.<br clear="none">
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                          The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a
                          multi-stakeholder platform for people and
                          institutions interested and involved in ICT
                          policy and regulation. The network aims to act
                          as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in
                          support of the national aim of ICT enabled
                          growth and development.<br clear="none">
                          <br clear="none">
                          KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards
                          of acceptable behaviors online that you follow
                          in real life: respect people's times and
                          bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or
                          abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not
                          spam, do not market your wares or
                          qualifications.<br clear="none">
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              The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a
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              interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The
              network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
              sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled
              growth and development.<br clear="none">
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              KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of
              acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life:
              respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge,
              don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
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      <pre>_______________________________________________
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
</pre>
    
    <br clear="none">
    <pre class="ydp85810377yiv7037700816moz-signature">-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
<a shape="rect" class="ydp85810377yiv7037700816moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mje@posix.co.za</a>       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: <a shape="rect" class="ydp85810377yiv7037700816moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://ftth.posix.co.za" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://ftth.posix.co.za</a><div class="ydp85810377yiv7037700816yqt7991543067" id="ydp85810377yiv7037700816yqtfd39129">
</div></pre><div class="ydp85810377yiv7037700816yqt7991543067" id="ydp85810377yiv7037700816yqtfd07191">
  </div></div></div><div class="ydp85810377yqt7991543067" id="ydp85810377yqtfd77036">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">kictanet mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet</a><br clear="none">Twitter: <a shape="rect" href="http://twitter.com/kictanet" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/kictanet</a><br clear="none">Facebook: <a shape="rect" href="https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/</a><br clear="none">Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Unsubscribe or change your options at <a shape="rect" href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br clear="none"></div></div>
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