<div dir="ltr">Hi Mark,<div><br><div>Thanks for engaging and sharing, very interesting points.</div><div><ol><li>Would you know if GoK is still using Google Apps for mail and docs?<br></li><li>What would your analysis of this be from a national security perspective?<br></li></ol><div>Thanks</div></div><div>D</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 at 12:47, Mark Elkins via kictanet <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>By extending this logic - then you would suggest we tax anyone
using Gmail, or anyone hosting their web site or email services in
another country? Gmail is also an "Over The Top" service.<br>
</p>
<p>WhatsApp hurts telecom companies - because telecom companies
(mobile cell and fixed wire) made money from SMS's and Voice
services. It hurts because WhatsApp works well and is innovative -
you can use it (and many other similar services) to send Text,
Pictures, Documents, Video, Voice Memo's and make voice calls.
What you are perhaps suggesting is all innovation should be taxed?</p>
<p>Perhaps its time that the legacy telecom companies became more
innovative themselves or simply provide the connectivity (and
there is still lots of opportunity there). Voice and Text is just
data. Data providers are taxed locally. Data usage is increasing
so I presume Data companies are paying more and more tax.</p>
<p>As to abusive use (by any message conveying system) - humans will
continue to be "harmful" and unfortunately will choose the easiest
form of communications in order to group together - unless they
have no reason to do so. I've no idea how to change human nature
but I guess working on reasons for people to not become "harmful"
would be a valid step. Difficult.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_4907342250361941236moz-cite-prefix">On 11/06/2018 09:43 AM, evelyne wanjiku
via kictanet wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_4907342250361941236ydpb5fe8d2dyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div>Dear All,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This
is because they make money from us trade in our data and the
revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given
that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in
Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on
its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our
countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest
option for our government becomes the easy route which is
taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for
those who use social media for productive activities.
Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in
getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from
considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider
that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means
that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing
voice services. Considering that these companies are locally
based and pay taxes to our government, why should their
revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I
suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that
block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their
borders. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true
and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this
fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries
where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly
through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of
many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to
ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from
their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as
to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research
in this area. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp
to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and
the consequences that follow? Should government have a role
in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful
activities. Overall what is the role of government and the
various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are
used responsibly?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Good day to all<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yahoo_quoted_1613733877" class="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a">
<div> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis
Monyango via kictanet <a class="m_4907342250361941236moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank"><kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke></a>
wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201">
<div>
<div>
<div>Morning Mr Patrick Maina,
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake
news, crime and other things. You also lay
peace,development on a scale versus human rights
such as free speech and privacy. </div>
<div>Sir, it is good to be objective and factual.
Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics.
Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not
attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the
internet. Hence this tired line of the country
going into flames because of the internet
(messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The
number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and
other factors such as social class of users, bots
affect the impact of the internet in democratic
transitions. The broadcast media shut down in
January should tell which communication medium has
more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I believe your intention was to state why
companies that offer over the top services should
pay taxes here. That is a different argument all
together with a different set of facts unless you
are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to
be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and
lies' just like in Uganda.</div>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201gmail_quote">
<div class="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201yqt1626624204" id="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201yqt42651">
<div dir="ltr">On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick
A. M. Maina via kictanet, <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote class="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201m_9223035518842422037m_4449762713984428085ydpae0de249yahoo-style-wrap">
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">These
messaging apps facilitate fake news,
crime, foreign meddling (to subvert
democracy), brainwashing and hate speech
on a massive scale. We know this for a
fact. </div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">So as
citizens and stakeholders in our
country, we need to ask: what do we
value more, is it things that improve
peace, stability, economic development
and democracy, OR, is it some utopian,
unbounded notion of free speech and
privacy that is disconnected from our
contextual reality (e.g. protects
criminals, malicious defamers and
violence mongers in equal proportion as
law abiding citizens)?</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">The
companies running these uncontrolled
messaging platforms will not be impacted
if our country goes up in flames. They
cost governments tons of money in
maintaining internal security
(especially during democratic
transitions - sometimes to existential
levels) yet they don't pay any taxes...
and mark you, they are *billion dollar*
companies! This also means that funds
that ought to have bought, say, medicine
to save lives gets diverted to fix an
*imported problem* with no path to
holding the parent company accountable
for damage caused.</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Gok needs to
modernize our tax laws, which currently
are based on the traditional "for
profit" enterprise model and thus out of
touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses
by design" model. The basic assumption
that entrepreneurship is a profit
oriented endeavour does not hold for
Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies.
They are designed to operate as loss
makers for decades (but still move
*massive* amounts of financial resources
at massive scale). This has the
technical effect of *tax avoidance*
because massive profits *are* still
being made by the offshore VCs - which
denies governments billions in taxes
(despite imposing local burdens as
illustrated above). </div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">A smart
government would create modernized laws
to tax VC funded Silicon Valley
companies e.g. on the basis of *funding
rounds* and *valuations* because this is
their *real* business i.e. its how the
investors intend to make money from day
one - and the primary reason they push
for perpetual losses!</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">There should
also be a turnover tax and VAT on online
revenue earned in Kenya by foreign
billion dollar internet companies (e.g.
advertisement revenue and appstore
revenue), to level the tax playing field
for local businesses. Similar to what
other countries like the UK are working
on: </div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:16px"><a shape="rect" href="https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill</a></span></font><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">CA will
obviously have a hard time monitoring
and enforcing though, under the current
traditional framework due to technical
barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due
to jurisdictional challenges. </div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">So the other
thing that CA really needs to do once
the rules are set is to consider
blocking non-compliant foreign apps
completely at ISP level (especially now
that political temperatures are cool and
people and thinking clearly). Lets have
local startups filling any gaps with
copycat apps China-style. </div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">To be clear,
I support free speech and privacy. But I
also support peace, stability, safe
neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty
and economic predictability!</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">A delicate
balance is needed to maximise the rights
of law abiding citizens while minimising
the ability of those with evil intent to
exploit basic rights in order to harm
the innocent.</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Good day.</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Patrick.</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201m_9223035518842422037m_4449762713984428085ydpae0de249yahoo_quoted" id="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201m_9223035518842422037m_4449762713984428085ydpae0de249yahoo_quoted_1201304712" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div>
<div> On Thursday, November 1, 2018,
11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga
via kictanet <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>>
wrote: </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div id="m_4907342250361941236ydp37fc9635yiv3028999201m_9223035518842422037m_4449762713984428085ydpae0de249yiv2708481342">
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:colfaxregular,sans Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<p style="margin-bottom:15.6px;color:rgb(93,93,93);font-size:17px;font-family:georgia,century w01;line-height:25px">Kenya
is considering regulating
online services such as
WhatsApp and Skype in a
radical move that could
force the internet-based
service providers to share
data with the government.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="color:rgb(93,93,93);font-family:georgia,century w01;font-size:17px;margin-bottom:15.6px;line-height:25px">The
Communications Authority of
Kenya (CA) is in search of a
consultant to study and
determine how the so-called
over-the-top services (OTTS)
operated by groups such as
Facebook, which runs
WhatsApp, and Skype owner
Microsoft, could be
regulated.</p>
<font color="#333333" face="colfaxregular,
avantgardegothicitcw01b
731069, nimbus sans tw01,
Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:16px">Read
on: <a shape="rect" href="https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html</a></span></font><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Best regards<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Githaiga, Grace<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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<pre class="m_4907342250361941236moz-signature" cols="72">--
Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br>
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div><div><div>Daudi Were | <a href="mailto:daudi@were.co.ke" target="_blank">daudi@were.co.ke</a></div><div>Technology + Strategy</div><div>Too brief? Here's why! <a href="http://emailcharter.org" target="_blank">http://emailcharter.org</a></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div></div></div>