<div dir="auto">With its current business model, I doubt whether the app gets any revenue from Kenya.  Taxing whatsapp would mean taxing Kenyans for using the platform, not FB.  </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Nov 6, 2018, 11:10 AM Barrack Otieno via kictanet <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Ebele,<br>
<br>
You are best placed to give us guidance on that question. The reason<br>
why this conversation is getting complicated is lack of statistics on<br>
the so called benefits carriers are losing because of OTTs. Might you<br>
be having any statistics on the same. It appears unanimity among<br>
regulators in our region on the issue is growing.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
On 11/6/18, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>> wrote:<br>
> This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can<br>
> imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁<br>
> I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from<br>
> Kenya?<br>
><br>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet<br>
> <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Dear All,<br>
><br>
> In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.<br>
><br>
> The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they<br>
> make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits<br>
> their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has<br>
> been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this<br>
> taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries<br>
> find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government<br>
> becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is<br>
> counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive<br>
> activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in<br>
> getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering<br>
> taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on<br>
> whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction<br>
> for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies<br>
> are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue<br>
> be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the<br>
> logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make<br>
> calls whithin their borders.<br>
><br>
> As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been<br>
> proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like<br>
> India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory<br>
> messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led<br>
> to deaths of many people.  Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to<br>
> ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end.<br>
> Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be<br>
> contolled and is actively leading research in this area.<br>
><br>
> The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge<br>
> of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow?<br>
> Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for<br>
> harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various<br>
> platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?<br>
><br>
> Good day to all<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via<br>
> kictanet<br>
> <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Morning Mr Patrick Maina,<br>
><br>
> You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things.<br>
> You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free<br>
> speech and privacy.<br>
> Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months<br>
> of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt<br>
> to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the<br>
> country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't<br>
> hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and<br>
> other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the<br>
> internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January<br>
> should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan<br>
> society. 😉<br>
><br>
> I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top<br>
> services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together<br>
> with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over<br>
> the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just<br>
> like in Uganda.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet,<br>
> <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to<br>
> subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know<br>
> this for a fact.<br>
><br>
> So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we<br>
> value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development<br>
> and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and<br>
> privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects<br>
> criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as<br>
> law abiding citizens)?<br>
><br>
> The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be<br>
> impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of<br>
> money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic<br>
> transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any<br>
> taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means<br>
> that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets<br>
> diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent<br>
> company accountable for damage caused.<br>
><br>
> Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the<br>
> traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon<br>
> Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that<br>
> entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon<br>
> Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers<br>
> for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at<br>
> massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because<br>
> massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies<br>
> governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated<br>
> above).<br>
><br>
><br>
> A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon<br>
> Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations*<br>
> because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to<br>
> make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual<br>
> losses!<br>
><br>
> There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in<br>
> Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement<br>
> revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local<br>
> businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill</a><<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=</a>><br>
><br>
> CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under<br>
> the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g.<br>
> encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.<br>
><br>
> So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to<br>
> consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level<br>
> (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking<br>
> clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps<br>
> China-style.<br>
><br>
> To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace,<br>
> stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic<br>
> predictability!<br>
><br>
> A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens<br>
> while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic<br>
> rights in order to harm the innocent.<br>
><br>
> Good day.<br>
> Patrick.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via<br>
> kictanet<br>
> <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype<br>
> in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to<br>
> share data with the government.<br>
><br>
> The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to<br>
> study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated<br>
> by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft,<br>
> could be regulated.<br>
><br>
> Read on:<br>
> <a href="https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html</a><<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nation.co.ke_business_Telcos-2Dregulator-2Dseeks-2Dto-2Dmonitor-2DWhatsApp_996-2D4833020-2Dfn9u7s_index.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=cndeiTd4wVC4D6EsU4xGNLbSnmIyYUhzbfcRXK3rLjQ&e=" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nation.co.ke_business_Telcos-2Dregulator-2Dseeks-2Dto-2Dmonitor-2DWhatsApp_996-2D4833020-2Dfn9u7s_index.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=cndeiTd4wVC4D6EsU4xGNLbSnmIyYUhzbfcRXK3rLjQ&e=</a>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Best regards<br>
><br>
><br>
> Githaiga, Grace<br>
><br>
><br>
> Co-Convenor<br>
> Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet)<br>
> Twitter:@ggithaiga<br>
> Tel: 254722701495<br>
> Skype: gracegithaiga<br>
> Alternate email: <a href="mailto:ggithaiga@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ggithaiga@hotmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:ggithaiga@hotmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ggithaiga@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> Linkedin:<br>
> <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga</a><<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_gracegithaiga&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=SPbDCZGLkvuvhrwZZV8pDdaTSmOKiuLCuepKMWmx2h4&e=" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_gracegithaiga&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=SPbDCZGLkvuvhrwZZV8pDdaTSmOKiuLCuepKMWmx2h4&e=</a>><br>
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><br>
> "Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come<br>
> together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to<br>
> bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> kictanet mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>><br>
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> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for<br>
> people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and<br>
> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT<br>
> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and<br>
> development.<br>
><br>
> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors<br>
> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,<br>
> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do<br>
> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
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> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for<br>
> people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and<br>
> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT<br>
> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and<br>
> development.<br>
><br>
> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors<br>
> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,<br>
> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do<br>
> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> kictanet mailing list<br>
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> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for<br>
> people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and<br>
> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT<br>
> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and<br>
> development.<br>
><br>
> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors<br>
> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,<br>
> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do<br>
> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> kictanet mailing list<br>
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> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for<br>
> people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and<br>
> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT<br>
> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and<br>
> development.<br>
><br>
> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors<br>
> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,<br>
> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do<br>
> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Barrack O. Otieno<br>
+254721325277<br>
+254733206359<br>
Skype: barrack.otieno<br>
PGP ID: 0x2611D86A<br>
<br>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br>
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
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