<div dir="auto">Well, whatever that charge sheet looks like... An Indian court has decided WhatsApp admins should not be held liable for content on the group. I have attached the relevant court order for ease of reference. The precedent in India is persuasive for a similar case in Ke.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It will be Interesting to see a Kenyan judgement/Ruling</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Mutindi. </div><div dir="auto">Advocate. </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 19 Jul 2017 12:22 p.m., "Michael Ilishebo via kictanet" <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Whatsapp ADMIN<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I have followed this discourse and interesting points being brought up on the part of Liability by Whatsapp Admin.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Whatsapp groups are not like Facebook or Tweeter Groups. With Facebook, it is much easier to delete content by Admins that do not conform to the set rules of the group....however, it is IMPOSSIBLE with Whatsapp to moderate by deleting content because each individual handset acts as a end server. One can only delete what is in their mobile phone and not that which is in a group.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">As a Law Enforcement Officer (Non Kenyan), this has poised as a serious challenge when it comes to holding Whatsapp Admin liable for 'crimes committed ' in their groups.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I stand to be corrected.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Michael Ilishebo,</div><div dir="auto">Zambia</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Jul 18, 2017 16:18, <<a href="mailto:kictanet-request@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet-request@lists.<wbr>kictanet.or.ke</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="m_-1790224696545610153quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send kictanet mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: 21 WhatsApp groups spreading hate identified - Daily<br>
Nation (Admin CampusCiti)<br>
2. Re: 21 WhatsApp groups spreading hate identified - Daily<br>
Nation (Admin CampusCiti)<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>----------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 17:12:17 +0300<br>
From: Admin CampusCiti <<a href="mailto:info@campusciti.com" target="_blank">info@campusciti.com</a>><br>
To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><wbr>><br>
Subject: Re: [kictanet] 21 WhatsApp groups spreading hate identified -<br>
Daily Nation<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:158F0871-A237-4045-B638-C16392FE8C6F@campusciti.com" target="_blank">158F0871-A237-4045-B638-C1639<wbr>2FE8C6F@campusciti.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
@Florence<br>
<br>
I can bet you one thing. With the Capacity Building that KICTANet is doing through KeSIG, where I believe there was strong representation from the boys and girls in blue there will be a lot more sense to read on the Charge Sheet. Contrary to popular belief our Disciplined Forces are catching up fast.<br>
<br>
To your point though - That Charge Sheet would be interesting.. ?<br>
<br>
Ali Hussein<br>
Hussein & Associates<br>
<a href="tel:%2B254%200713%20601113" value="+254713601113" target="_blank">+254 0713 601113</a> / 0770906375<br>
<br>
Twitter: @AliHKassim<br>
Skype: abu-jomo<br>
LinkedIn: <a href="http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alih<wbr>kassim</a><br>
Blog: <a href="http://www.alyhussein.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.alyhussein.com</a><br>
<br>
"Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad<br>
<br>
> On 18 Jul 2017, at 4:34 PM, florence mwangangi via kictanet <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> @ Ali, thanks for the link on Internet governace on the liability of internet intermediaries. The questions arising in 2014 are weighty today, indeed more weighty in view of technological advancements in information and communications since 2014, not to mention the individual's constitutional guarantees on rights and freedoms related to information, communication and assembling/associating with others.<br>
> It would be interesting to read a charge sheet on Internet intermediary liability.<br>
><br>
><br>
>> On 18 Jul 2017 10:15, "Ali Hussein" <<a href="mailto:ali@hussein.me.ke" target="_blank">ali@hussein.me.ke</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Florence<br>
>><br>
>> Indeed. This also sort of starts me thinking of Intermediary Liability. In the absence of clear Policy Guidelines and Regulatory Framework regarding Internet Governance we are left to flounder and make 'Roadside Proclamations' like the one being reported here.<br>
>><br>
>> See this write up on a workshop on Intermediary Liability that can start informing some of these conversations. It is important as a country that we define what Internet Governance is. We are into the 20+ year of the Internet in this country and we are yet to define what Internet Governance looks like for our country. You can now see the folly of that negligence.<br>
>><br>
>> Regards<br>
>><br>
>> Ali Hussein<br>
>> Principal<br>
>> Hussein & Associates<br>
>><br>
>> Tel: <a href="tel:%2B254%20713%20601113" value="+254713601113" target="_blank">+254 713 601113</a><br>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim<br>
>> Skype: abu-jomo<br>
>> LinkedIn: <a href="http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alih<wbr>kassim</a><br>
>><br>
>> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,<br>
>> Chiromo Road, Westlands,<br>
>> Nairobi, Kenya.<br>
>><br>
>> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.<br>
>><br>
>>> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 9:29 AM, florence mwangangi <<a href="mailto:fmwangangi1@gmail.com" target="_blank">fmwangangi1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> Criminal liability is personal. If an administrator is not the author of the offending post, he/she cannot be criminally liable in law. Shall we also jail the admins of Facebook, Twitter et al on similar lines??<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>> On 18 Jul 2017 07:35, "Ali Hussein via kictanet" <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><wbr>> wrote:<br>
>>>> Listers<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> This conversation goes on.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Can these groups and the content they are spreading be named so that Kenyans can know what this is all about?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> As I said yesterday, let's also ensure that the obvious perpetrators are brought to book. It shouldn't be hard to discern the truth and prosecute those who are found guilty of spreading hatred.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> And as the authorities do this they must exercise utmost transparency and caution lest Kenyans start questioning the real motives behind this concerted effort to curb Kenyans right to expression. As I have said before as Kenyans we need to know one thing:-<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> What is wrong offline is also wrong online. I'm not sure why we are making a distinction on this issue. Last time I checked the Penal Code hasn't changed.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.nation.co.ke/news/21-WhatsApp-groups-spreading-hate-identified/1056-4018322-ix7vff/index.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.nation.co.ke/news/2<wbr>1-WhatsApp-groups-spreading-ha<wbr>te-identified/1056-4018322-ix7<wbr>vff/index.html</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Ali Hussein<br>
>>>> Principal<br>
>>>> Hussein & Associates<br>
>>>> <a href="tel:%2B254%200713%20601113" value="+254713601113" target="_blank">+254 0713 601113</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Twitter: @AliHKassim<br>
>>>> Skype: abu-jomo<br>
>>>> LinkedIn: <a href="http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alih<wbr>kassim</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Sent from my iPad<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>>>> kictanet mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><br>
>>>> <a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m<wbr>ailman/listinfo/kictanet</a><br>
>>>> Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/kictanet" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/kictanet</a><br>
>>>> Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/KICTA<wbr>Net/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at <a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fmwangangi1%40gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m<wbr>ailman/options/kictanet/fmwang<wbr>angi1%40gmail.com</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
>><br>
> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
> kictanet mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><br>
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><br>
> Unsubscribe or change your options at <a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/info%40campusciti.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m<wbr>ailman/options/kictanet/info%4<wbr>0campusciti.com</a><br>
><br>
> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br>
><br>
> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 17:13:50 +0300<br>
From: Admin CampusCiti <<a href="mailto:info@campusciti.com" target="_blank">info@campusciti.com</a>><br>
To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><wbr>><br>
Subject: Re: [kictanet] 21 WhatsApp groups spreading hate identified -<br>
Daily Nation<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:AFB36F08-36AC-44BB-8EE4-8601974C4B16@campusciti.com" target="_blank">AFB36F08-36AC-44BB-8EE4-86019<wbr>74C4B16@campusciti.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Not to mention what Bwana CS told us during the Facebook Open House. Though he had the good sense to qualify the 'We will not Shutdown the Internet'. :-)<br>
<br>
Ali Hussein<br>
Hussein & Associates<br>
<a href="tel:%2B254%200713%20601113" value="+254713601113" target="_blank">+254 0713 601113</a> / 0770906375<br>
<br>
Twitter: @AliHKassim<br>
Skype: abu-jomo<br>
LinkedIn: <a href="http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alih<wbr>kassim</a><br>
Blog: <a href="http://www.alyhussein.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.alyhussein.com</a><br>
<br>
"Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad<br>
<br>
> On 18 Jul 2017, at 5:01 PM, Grace Mutung'u via kictanet <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Indeed Ali,<br>
> There is a problem in defining Internet governance and the roles of different actors. Look for instance at this article where two state agencies give conflicting statements on the issue of Internet shutdowns:<br>
> ?Last week, you guys asked me, are you contemplating shutting down some of these social media, my answer was and continues to be if it is necessary, they will be shut out if it is necessary. So that is my stand and I believe that is what ought to be,? Kaparo told a forum on election preparedness, bringing together police chefs, judiciary officials, the NCIC and the Communication Authority.?<br>
><br>
> then<br>
><br>
> Communications Authority of Kenya Director General Francis Wangusi has however, assured that the internet will not be closed, but urged users to be responsible at all times.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Full article here:<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2017/07/kenya-may-shut-off-social-media-august-elections/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/new<wbr>s/2017/07/kenya-may-shut-off-<wbr>social-media-august-elections/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> 2017-07-18 16:34 GMT+03:00 florence mwangangi via kictanet <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><wbr>>:<br>
>> @ Ali, thanks for the link on Internet governace on the liability of internet intermediaries. The questions arising in 2014 are weighty today, indeed more weighty in view of technological advancements in information and communications since 2014, not to mention the individual's constitutional guarantees on rights and freedoms related to information, communication and assembling/associating with others.<br>
>> It would be interesting to read a charge sheet on Internet intermediary liability.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> On 18 Jul 2017 10:15, "Ali Hussein" <<a href="mailto:ali@hussein.me.ke" target="_blank">ali@hussein.me.ke</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> Florence<br>
>>><br>
>>> Indeed. This also sort of starts me thinking of Intermediary Liability. In the absence of clear Policy Guidelines and Regulatory Framework regarding Internet Governance we are left to flounder and make 'Roadside Proclamations' like the one being reported here.<br>
>>><br>
>>> See this write up on a workshop on Intermediary Liability that can start informing some of these conversations. It is important as a country that we define what Internet Governance is. We are into the 20+ year of the Internet in this country and we are yet to define what Internet Governance looks like for our country. You can now see the folly of that negligence.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Regards<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ali Hussein<br>
>>> Principal<br>
>>> Hussein & Associates<br>
>>><br>
>>> Tel: <a href="tel:%2B254%20713%20601113" value="+254713601113" target="_blank">+254 713 601113</a><br>
>>> Twitter: @AliHKassim<br>
>>> Skype: abu-jomo<br>
>>> LinkedIn: <a href="http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alih<wbr>kassim</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,<br>
>>> Chiromo Road, Westlands,<br>
>>> Nairobi, Kenya.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.<br>
>>><br>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 9:29 AM, florence mwangangi <<a href="mailto:fmwangangi1@gmail.com" target="_blank">fmwangangi1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>> Criminal liability is personal. If an administrator is not the author of the offending post, he/she cannot be criminally liable in law. Shall we also jail the admins of Facebook, Twitter et al on similar lines??<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> On 18 Jul 2017 07:35, "Ali Hussein via kictanet" <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><wbr>> wrote:<br>
>>>>> Listers<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> This conversation goes on.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Can these groups and the content they are spreading be named so that Kenyans can know what this is all about?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> As I said yesterday, let's also ensure that the obvious perpetrators are brought to book. It shouldn't be hard to discern the truth and prosecute those who are found guilty of spreading hatred.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> And as the authorities do this they must exercise utmost transparency and caution lest Kenyans start questioning the real motives behind this concerted effort to curb Kenyans right to expression. As I have said before as Kenyans we need to know one thing:-<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> What is wrong offline is also wrong online. I'm not sure why we are making a distinction on this issue. Last time I checked the Penal Code hasn't changed.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://www.nation.co.ke/news/21-WhatsApp-groups-spreading-hate-identified/1056-4018322-ix7vff/index.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.nation.co.ke/news/2<wbr>1-WhatsApp-groups-spreading-ha<wbr>te-identified/1056-4018322-ix7<wbr>vff/index.html</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Ali Hussein<br>
>>>>> Principal<br>
>>>>> Hussein & Associates<br>
>>>>> <a href="tel:%2B254%200713%20601113" value="+254713601113" target="_blank">+254 0713 601113</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Twitter: @AliHKassim<br>
>>>>> Skype: abu-jomo<br>
>>>>> LinkedIn: <a href="http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alih<wbr>kassim</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>>>>> kictanet mailing list<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><br>
>>>>> <a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m<wbr>ailman/listinfo/kictanet</a><br>
>>>>> Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/kictanet" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/kictanet</a><br>
>>>>> Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/KICTA<wbr>Net/</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at <a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fmwangangi1%40gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m<wbr>ailman/options/kictanet/fmwang<wbr>angi1%40gmail.com</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>> kictanet mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m<wbr>ailman/listinfo/kictanet</a><br>
>> Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/kictanet" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/kictanet</a><br>
>> Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/KICTA<wbr>Net/</a><br>
>><br>
>> Unsubscribe or change your options at <a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/nmutungu%40gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m<wbr>ailman/options/kictanet/nmutun<wbr>gu%40gmail.com</a><br>
>><br>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br>
>><br>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Grace Mutung'u<br>
> Skype: gracebomu<br>
> @Bomu<br>
> PGP ID : 0x33A3450F<br>
><br>
> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
> kictanet mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><br>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br>
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