<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Ngigi</div><div><br></div><div>You are quite correct. </div><div><br></div><div>The principle though also applies even in the analogue world hence extradition laws are usually complex. The point I'm making is that the legal experts must start thinking out of the box and simplify this. I'm sure some list way back when TV and Radio was the new new thing were debating the same issues. Us humans are now going for holidays in space..Soon we may be inhabiting those far off places..we must be prepared across the board including a new way of looking at laws and enforcing them. </div><div><br><div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.294118); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373);">Ali Hussein</span></div><div><br></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">+254 0770 906375 / 0713 601113</div><div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div>"I fear the day technology will surpass human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots". ~ Albert Einstein</div><div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.294118); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373);"><br></span></div>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Nov 28, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Ngigi Waithaka <<a href="mailto:ngigi@at.co.ke">ngigi@at.co.ke</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><p dir="ltr">Ali,</p>
<p dir="ltr">Been following this debate about crimes either done 'Analogue', old way or 'Digital', new way.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I do feel with the coming of the Intermet age, crime is not as straight forward. Let me use an example.</p>
<p dir="ltr">If I woke up today walked to The Daily Nation and published an article calling Ali a thief, I think by the laws of this country I stand to get sued for Slander.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Now, if I flew to country X far far away, that doesn't have similiar laws, say Fiji Islands, and called Ali a thief, would Ali sue me? I think probably not. I am not even in Kenya and in the country I am in its not a crime to do so.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Now, here is the interesting aspect; what if I was in Kenya, wrote a letter saying Alex is a thief, sent it to Fiji Islands and had it published there? Would I get sued for a crime?</p>
<p dir="ltr">I look at the Internet as the latter scenario; where we publish blogs, host them in far away countries (Fiji Islands) and then go ahead and unleash vitriol on anyone we like. But, are our actions Criminal and by what Law? </p>
<p dir="ltr">If you look at it, what crime is might not be that obvious afterall.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Waithaka Ngigi<br>
A1.iO</p>
<p dir="ltr">Waithaka Ngigi</p>
<p dir="ltr">Alliance Technologies<br>
Nairobi, Kenya</p>
<p dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.A1.io">www.A1.io</a></p>
<div class="gmail_quot<blockquote class=" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Grace and listers</div><div><br></div><div>Firstly let us address the issue of Double Criminality. According to Wikipedia:-</div>
<div><br></div><div><p style="margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><b>Double criminality</b> (also known as <b>dual criminality</b>) is a requirement in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition" title="Extradition" style="text-decoration:none;background-image:none" target="_blank">extradition</a> law of many countries. It states that a suspect can be extradited from one country to stand trial for breaking a second country's laws <i>only</i> when a similar law exists in the extraditing country.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">For example, if Country A has no laws against <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy" title="Blasphemy" style="text-decoration:none;background-image:none" target="_blank">blasphemy</a>, double criminality could prevent a suspect being extradited from Country A to face blasphemy charges in another country.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></p><p style="margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">This is of course a double edged sword. The implication here on harmonization of regional laws is a red flag. What may be kosher in Zimbabwe may not pass muster in Kenya. I get the feeing here that the interest of the Citizenry is secondary to Government. I'm a strong proponent of less Government not more.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">On the issue of additional punishment. I sometimes get the feeling that we think human behavior is different online as opposed to offline. Fraud is fraud whether off or online. Impersonation (as opposed to anonymity) is still impersonation and depending on why you are impersonating someone it still is a crime. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">I honestly get confused on some of these issues. It's like saying we will have separate laws when you break the law at home, at work or in the bus!! Stealing is stealing, whether offline or online!! Murder is murder whether on the bus or in space!!</span></p>
<p style="margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Lets simplify the penal code so that we don't have to create new laws every time a new medium of communication comes!</span></p><br>
<div><span>Ali Hussein</span></div><div><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium">+254 0770 906375 / 0713 601113</div><div><span><br></span></div><div>"I fear the day technology will surpass human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots". ~ Albert Einstein</div>
<div><span><br></span></div><span>Sent from my iPad</span></div><div><br>On Nov 28, 2013, at 12:56 AM, Grace Githaiga <<a href="mailto:ggithaiga@hotmail.com" target="_blank">ggithaiga@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>
</div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div dir="ltr">Good morning Listers<div><br></div><div>Today is day 4 and our <b style="line-height:16.5pt;font-size:12pt">focus is on PROMOTING CYBERSECURITY AND COMBATING
CYBERCRIME. </b><span style="line-height:16.5pt;font-size:12pt">We raise two questions:</span></div><div><span style="line-height:22px"><b><br></b></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"> <b>Article III – 14: Harmonization</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"><i>1) Member States have to undertake necessary measures to
ensure that the legislative measures and / or regulations adopted to fight
against cybercrime enhance the possibility of regional harmonization of these
measures and respect the principle of double criminality.</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"><b><br></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"><font color="#ac193d"><b>Question</b>:</font> <b>What is the
principle of double criminality here?</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"><b> </b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"><b>Section II: Other penal sanctions</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"> <b>Article III – 48</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"><i>Each Member State of the African Union have to take
necessary legislative measures to ensure that, in the case of conviction for an
offense committed by means of digital communication facility, the competent
jurisdiction or the judge handling the case gives a ruling imposing additional
punishment.</i><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"><i><br></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:16.5pt;background-repeat:initial initial"><b><font color="#ac193d">Question:</font><span> </span></b> <b>What is the interpretation of additional punishment?
Is this not granting of absolute powers to judges?</b><u></u><u></u></p><div><br></div><div>We are almost getting there! Like Walu has reminded us, this is our opportunity to contribute and shape this debate. Over to you!</div>
<div><br></div><div>A great day to you all.</div><div>Rgds</div><div>GG</div></div> </div>
</div></blockquote></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
kictanet mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet</a><br>
<br>
Unsubscribe or change your options at <a href="https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ngigi%40at.co.ke" target="_blank">https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ngigi%40at.co.ke</a><br>
<br>
The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.<br>
<br>
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.<br>
</div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>