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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Al Kags,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>That is why this town hall meeting may be important.
Actually Harry (Hare), came up with a more brilliant </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>idea that </FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN class=546462318-07042010>would require us to make this to be
more of an evaluation process - that would create a "need" for
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=546462318-07042010>either </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=546462318-07042010>overhaul or improvement in structures and processes.
This could be enacted by Govt, either through </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=546462318-07042010>legislation, or an executive
decision.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=546462318-07042010></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Mr. Kukubo, also had a good suggestion that we cast the net
wider, to draw in as many stakeholers as</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>we can. This, I suppose would be be a perfect chance for us,
to tick each of these agencies </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>off the list,
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>enumerating their roles, mandate, and how this all should
fit in the bigger picture across </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>the national
ICT</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Landscape. I suppose, we need to hold to account those tasked
with a mandate..</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>So I
suppose, the question we should be asking ourselves, is where do we first start
- The town hall meeting..?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>And
how do we cast this net wider for participation..?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546462318-07042010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Harry</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B>
kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke
[mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Al Kags<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:45
PM<BR><B>To:</B> harry@comtelsys.co.ke<BR><B>Cc:</B> KICTAnet ICT Policy
Discussions<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board?
Hijacked<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Gilda, you are right that all organisations need to meet their
obligations effectively. I wonder though whether some of them are not
duplicated? especially some that we have seen listed on this thread?<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:godera@skyweb.co.ke">godera@skyweb.co.ke</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><BR>Hi Harry,<BR><BR>I believe the various organisations are
all playing their own unique roles.<BR>Key thing is for each to meet it's
obligations effectively.<BR>Tim Waema's proposal on the discussion of various
organisations and their<BR>mandate is no doubt a good idea to get things
cleared and for industry to<BR>continue giving their input so that the
organisations are well designed.<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>Gilda<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>Quoting Harry Delano <<A
href="mailto:harry@comtelsys.co.ke">harry@comtelsys.co.ke</A>>:<BR><BR>><BR>>
S. Murigi,<BR>><BR>> Hey is it an ipad you typing on....?? Anyways, just
on a lighter note...<BR>><BR>> So, what could be the best way forward?
It seems, we just got a whole myriad<BR>> of organizations out here, some
of them I'm hearing for the 1st time..<BR>><BR>> Harry<BR>><BR>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>> From: kictanet-bounces+harry=<A
href="http://comtelsys.co.ke" target=_blank>comtelsys.co.ke</A>@<A
href="http://lists.kictanet.or.ke"
target=_blank>lists.kictanet.or.ke</A><BR>> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry">kictanet-bounces+harry</A>=<A
href="http://comtelsys.co.ke" target=_blank>comtelsys.co.ke</A>@<A
href="http://lists.kictanet.or.ke" target=_blank>lists.kictanet.or.ke</A>]
On<BR>> Behalf Of S.Murigi Muraya<BR>> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010
3:25 PM<BR>> To: <A
href="mailto:harry@comtelsys.co.ke">harry@comtelsys.co.ke</A><BR>> Cc:
KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<BR>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT
Board? Hijacked<BR>><BR>> About 2 years ago went to the KICTB offices
then at Waiyaki Way. My purpose<BR>> then was to find out what they were
about.<BR>><BR>> Was referred to a visibly irritated fellow who was done
with me in less than<BR>> 1 minute only telling me to check the KICTB
website.<BR>><BR>> Have waited to see what they would come up with and
am not too disappointed.<BR>> For one they organize, co sponsor or market
industry events that yuppies can<BR>> be involved in without falling
asleep. Being sort of experienced in the<BR>> professional tech skills
development field this can authoritatively say this<BR>> is one of the
'enabling situations' we have lacked locally.<BR>><BR>> We need skills
but companies are not willing to train unethical techies who<BR>> jump ship
immediately after being sharpened. On the other hand techies are<BR>>
unable to effectively educate themselves without corporate or tech
community<BR>> support eg. <A href="http://www.ihub.co.ke"
target=_blank>www.ihub.co.ke</A><BR>><BR>> Training centers are not too
doing well financially & cannot hire the best<BR>> (often more
experienced) techies because corporates are not training as much<BR>> as
they should. By working with industry giants (eg Google, Microsoft,<BR>>
Oracle) & their partners the KICTB is somehow helping educate techies
via<BR>> these industry events.<BR>><BR>> If anything, the KICTB
needs to exist for this purpose -> to help build<BR>> capacity in the
local tech industry. They are exposing budding software<BR>> entreprenuers
to Indian outsourcing practices to name another 'situation'<BR>> they are
enabling. GITS, NCS etc do not do this as far as I know.<BR>><BR>>
Nimechoka - typing on a mobile.<BR>><BR>> SMM<BR>><BR>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>> From: Barrack Otieno <<A
href="mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com">otieno.barrack@gmail.com</A>><BR>>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 16:52<BR>> To: <A
href="mailto:murigi.muraya@gmail.com">murigi.muraya@gmail.com</A><BR>> Cc:
KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <<A
href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</A>><BR>>
Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked<BR>><BR>> Dr.
Siganga,<BR>><BR>> Your write up makes sense, i guess we have been
mixing too many issues, in<BR>> other words we handle government agencies
and industry associations<BR>> separately, sounds like the meeting is a
welcome idea, i suggest government<BR>> agencies first.<BR>><BR>>
Regards<BR>><BR>> On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:03 PM, waudo siganga <<A
href="mailto:emailsignet@mailcan.com">emailsignet@mailcan.com</A>><BR>>
wrote:<BR>> > Hi Evans, all - we have discussed the issue of a statutory
body to<BR>> > regulate ICT professionalism on this list in the past and
the<BR>> > discussion did not go far. Some said that we would be
interfering with<BR>> > "innovation". Some mentioned Bill Gates as a guy
who has done much but<BR>> > does not have any professional
qualification. Yet others had other<BR>> > stories (e.g. the three blind
men story from Brian and his note to<BR>> > Walu on 7/7/08:<BR>>
>> I beg to differ. ICT is too large, too deep and too wide to have
a<BR>> >> single, authoritative, representative body. What you refer
to would<BR>> >> probably be more appropriate to some of the
professional disciplines<BR>> >> within the ICT sector e.g. Software
Developers Guild, System<BR>> >> Administrators Association, CIO/CTO
Society - within which there can<BR>> >> be certain codes of
behavior, ethics, values, best practices etc...<BR>> ><BR>> > On
10/9/08 on this list I re-introduced the topic of a statutory body<BR>>
> such as LSK,ICPAK, ... to guide the ICT profession. In my mail I
even<BR>> > included a "draft ICT Professionals Act". The idea
received cold<BR>> > water except from Kamotho.<BR>> ><BR>>
> One distinction between "profession" and "Industry". In my mind I
see<BR>> > statutory bodies as more regulating "profession" rather than
"industry".<BR>> > Industry bodies are normally private sector
initiatives formed by<BR>> > interested persons to achieve common goals.
I can be surprised to hear<BR>> > the government being asked to help set
up an "industry" association of<BR>> > any type. Private sector
associations engage the government, so how<BR>> > can the same
government be involved in their set up? The other<BR>> > axiomatic thing
about associations is that the ones that do not<BR>> > deliver
invariably die a natural death - and there are many examples<BR>> > of
this in Kenya even within ICT. It is not difficult to set up a<BR>> >
membership association (just like a Church or Club which are set up
under<BR>> the same "Societies Act").<BR>> > People cannot be stopped
from setting up associations because the<BR>> > Constitution guarantees
freedom of association. This means those who<BR>> > have any bright
ideas that are not accommodated by existing<BR>> > associations cannot
have an excuse or choose to take up the role of<BR>> > professional
hecklers of existing associations.<BR>> ><BR>> > Within ICT we
agreed some years to accommodate multiple associations<BR>> > which then
converge under KEPSA umbrella to offer a unified voice.<BR>> > This I
think is working very well as recently exemplified at the Prime<BR>> >
Minister's Round Table where ICT issues were very well articulated.<BR>>
><BR>> > With regard to Prof's suggestion to discuss government
agencies and<BR>> > private sector associations at the same meeting I
think that would<BR>> > create much confusion and even opportunities for
red herrings to be<BR>> > thrown around. It is mixing oranges and
apples. The word "association"<BR>> > is actually a short form. The
exact terminology is "membership<BR>> > association". An association is
made up of members who voluntarily<BR>> > come together and run their
interests. The members have their own<BR>> > channels to discuss their
issues. It does not take much imagination to<BR>> > realize that someone
who is NOT a "member" is unlikely to have<BR>> > overflowing goodwill
towards (leave alone information about) the<BR>> > association. However,
associations face a lot of challenges and a<BR>> > specific get together
of associations to discuss best practices and<BR>> > ways of being
sustainable and more effective would be welcome. The<BR>> > Business
Advocacy Fund is for example doing a great and positive job<BR>> > in
the direction of capacity building and funding. Well done to them.<BR>>
> Another useful type of meeting is the type you refer to that was
held<BR>> > at KICC a couple of years ago where associations can inform
a wider<BR>> > audience about their activities and roles and, perhaps,
recruit more<BR>> members. Overall, an associations'<BR>> > meeting
should be a focused one and not be mixed up with one for<BR>> >
government agencies; and guest list should be expanded from Prof's<BR>>
> limiting suggestion of "the plethora of ICT industry associations
that<BR>> > are not effective" to include those which are effective so
that others<BR>> > can learn from them as well.<BR>> ><BR>>
> Waudo<BR>> > <A href="http://www.cskonline.org"
target=_blank>www.cskonline.org</A><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > On
Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:38 -0500, <A
href="mailto:ikua@lpakenya.org">ikua@lpakenya.org</A> wrote:<BR>> >>
Dear listers,<BR>> >> Did we not have a similar meeting not too long
ago? I think it was<BR>> >> about two years or so. Cant remember who
had organized it but it was<BR>> >> there at KICC. Same theme of
taking stock of all ICT bodies. Cant<BR>> >> remember if the
Government agencies were represented.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Not
that I have a problem with yet another similar meeting, but we<BR>>
>> need to clearly set out what we want to achieve with that kind
of<BR>> >> gathering. Its common knowledge that the ICT industry is
awash with<BR>> >> all manner of associations/organizations and
Government bodies. Isn't<BR>> >> it time that we had the sort of
organization that we see with other<BR>> >> professions like
Accountants and Lawyers etc? Isn't it time that the<BR>> >>
Government created a statutory industry association? This can easily<BR>>
>> be achieved by such legislation as the policy document presented
by<BR>> >> the PS the other day, or the Communications Act that was
passed not<BR>> >> too long ago.<BR>> >><BR>> >>
Inasmuch as the Government so believes in the increasing importance<BR>>
>> that ICT plays in the economy, then its imperative that we have
an<BR>> >> industry body that would take care of all others, say like
a CSK that<BR>> >> is recognized by an Act of parliament.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Regards,<BR>> >> Ikua<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Quoting Mwololo Tim <<A
href="mailto:timwololo@gmail.com">timwololo@gmail.com</A>>:<BR>>
>><BR>> >> > Dear all,<BR>> >> > The discussion
needs to be on the institutional framework for ICTs<BR>> >> > in
Kenya, not just on KICTB. It needs to cover KICTB, NCS and<BR>> >>
> DEG/GITS. It also needs to include the plethora of ICT industry<BR>>
associations that are not effective.<BR>> >> > I can organize such
a townhall meeting in Chiromo like the first one.<BR>> >> >
However, for such a meeting to be useful, it needs to be preceded<BR>>
>> > by some guided discussion on the same. Alternatively, one or two
<BR>> >> > persons can prepare presenations to guide the
discussions, with<BR>> >> > these presentations being made
available earlier for participants<BR>> >> > to acquint with them.
I am also prepared to be one of those<BR>> >> > persons.
tim<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:10
PM, Barrack Otieno<BR>> >> > <<A
href="mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com">otieno.barrack@gmail.com</A>>wrote:<BR>>
>> ><BR>> >> >> Daktari,<BR>> >>
>><BR>> >> >> Thank you for setting the ball rolling, not
sure i saw the<BR>> >> >> document as well it must have been
hijacked. A town hall meeting<BR>> >> >> is a welcome idea i
second it, Kippra felt sufficiently<BR>> >> >> philanthropic
before the last town hall meeting i wonder whether<BR>> >> >>
they can double their offer during this easter season, bwn Magolo<BR>>
>> >> can we count on you. Walu can set the agenda.<BR>>
>> >><BR>> >> >> Regards<BR>> >>
>><BR>> >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Solomon
Mburu Kamau<BR>> >> >> <<A
href="mailto:solo.mburu@gmail.com">solo.mburu@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR>>
>> >> > On 04/04/2010, <A
href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke">bitange@jambo.co.ke</A> <<A
href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke">bitange@jambo.co.ke</A>> wrote:<BR>>
>> >> >> Barrack,<BR>> >> >> >> Several
posts have come by on the role of ICT and I think it<BR>> >> >>
>> will be<BR>> >> >> wise<BR>> >> >>
>> if we sorted this in a town hall meeting similar to one we
had<BR>> >> >> >> on<BR>> >> >>
Malili.<BR>> >> >> >> Honestly it feels as though some
Neanderthal decided to create<BR>> >> >> >> these
agencies without putting some thought to it. Criticisms<BR>> >>
>> >> are good only when you point out where there are
gaps.<BR>> >> >> >><BR>> >> >> >>
The other day I posted a policy proposal for comments but only<BR>>
>> >> >> one<BR>> >> >> person<BR>>
>> >> >> did respond. What it means then is that this
forum ni ya<BR>> >> >> >> kuchongoana<BR>> >>
>> tu.<BR>> >> >> ><BR>> >> >> >
Dakitari, with due respect, would you mind resending the policy<BR>>
>> >> > proposals as a new thread so that interested parties
may respond?<BR>> >> >> > If sent within this thread, I'm
afraid they'll be swallowed<BR>> >> >> > along the<BR>>
>> >> way.<BR>> >> >> ><BR>> >>
>> >> Which really is unfortunate. I have four other
policy<BR>> >> >> >> proposals that I really think should
push through then arouse<BR>> >> >> >> sufficient
interest from<BR>> >> >> the<BR>> >> >> >>
membership here.<BR>> >> >> ><BR>> >> >> >
I also think you should send them so that we react to the contents!<BR>>
>> >> >><BR>> >> >> >><BR>> >>
>> >> Ndemo.<BR>> >> >> >><BR>> >>
>> >><BR>> >> >> >>> This is truly "Jicho
Pevu", i think some answers to this<BR>> >> >> >>>
questions are very much in order as we celebrate Easter, can<BR>> >>
>> >>> someone provide us with a list of all agencies involved
in<BR>> >> >> >>> ICTs and ICT4D so that we can do
some tooth comb analysis, i<BR>> >> >> >>> saw a
post from Paul on what the board has achieved early<BR>> >>
>> >>> this year, that was very much in order we need something
from NCS<BR>> as well plus any other agencies.<BR>> >> >>
>>><BR>> >> >> >>> Regards<BR>> >>
>> >>><BR>> >> >> >>> On Sat, Apr 3,
2010 at 12:50 PM, Vitalis Olunga<BR>> >> >> >>> <<A
href="mailto:volunga@yahoo.com">volunga@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> >>
>> wrote:<BR>> >> >> >>>> There is also
another body , National Communications<BR>> >> >>
>>>> Secretarait. What is the diffrence between NCS and ICT
Baord<BR>> >> >> >>>> and how do the two
bodies<BR>> >> >> relate<BR>> >> >>
>>>> with respect to advisory services to the governement on
ICT<BR>> matters?<BR>> >> >> >>>><BR>>
>> >> >>>> Regards<BR>> >> >>
>>>><BR>> >> >> >>>><BR>> >>
>> >>>> Vitalis<BR>> >> >>
>>>><BR>> >> >> >>>>
________________________________<BR>> >> >> >>>>
From: robert yawe <<A
href="mailto:robertyawe@yahoo.co.uk">robertyawe@yahoo.co.uk</A>><BR>>
>> >> >>>> To: <A
href="mailto:volunga@yahoo.com">volunga@yahoo.com</A><BR>> >>
>> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<BR>> >>
>> >>>> <<A
href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</A>><BR>>
>> >> >>>> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:03:22
PM<BR>> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is
ICT Board? Hijacked<BR>> >> >> >>>><BR>>
>> >> >>>> Hi,<BR>> >> >>
>>>> I rest my case on this issue, the ICT Board is a
monolith,<BR>> >> >> >>>> Try reading this... (pdf
file), as I feared it is mandated to<BR>> >> >>
>>>> do anything and everything under the sun that could be
called<BR>> >> >> >>>> ICT which includes your
microwave oven and copier.<BR>> >> >> >>>>
Functions of Kenya ICT Board<BR>> >> >> >>>> The
core functions of Kenya ICT Board as documented in the<BR>> >>
>> >>>> Kenya<BR>> >> >> Gazette<BR>>
>> >> >>>> Legal Notice No 26 of the May 2007:<BR>>
>> >> >>>> ? To advice the government on all
relevant matters<BR>> >> >> >>>> pertaining to
development, coordination (remember the PM<BR>> >> >>
>>>> post) and promotion of ICT industries in the country.<BR>>
>> >> >>>> ? Promote both locally and
internationally the opportunities<BR>> >> >> >>>>
for investments in ICT technology ? Facilitate and manage<BR>>
>> >> >>>> ICT industrial incubation parks and<BR>>
>> >> technology<BR>> >> >> >>>> parks
together with associated facilities on sites, estates and<BR>>
land.<BR>> >> >> >>>> ? Partner with agents
within and without the country to<BR>> >> >> >>>>
carry out<BR>> >> >> such<BR>> >> >>
>>>> functions as it may consider necessary.<BR>> >>
>> >>>> ? To transform and empower society through
deployment and<BR>> >> >> >>>> use of<BR>>
>> >> ICTs.<BR>> >> >> >>>> ?
Carry out any other activity to promote and develop ICT<BR>> >>
>> >>>> products<BR>> >> >> and<BR>>
>> >> >>>> services.<BR>> >> >>
>>>> Have a restful Easter as we await the limited range 4G,
yes<BR>> >> >> >>>> you<BR>> >> >>
guessed<BR>> >> >> >>>> it I<BR>> >>
>> >>>> still have a 3G issue and I am in Nairobi.<BR>>
>> >> >>>> Regards<BR>> >> >>
>>>><BR>> >> >> >>>><BR>> >>
>> >>>><BR>> >> >> >>>><BR>>
>> >> >>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> >> >>
>>>> kictanet mailing list<BR>> >> >>
>>>> <A
href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</A><BR>>
>> >> >>>> <A
href="http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet"
target=_blank>http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet</A><BR>>
>> >> >>>><BR>> >> >> >>>>
This message was sent to: <A
href="mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com">otieno.barrack@gmail.com</A><BR>>
>> >> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options
at<BR>> >> >> >>>><BR>> >> >> <A
href="http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac"
target=_blank>http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac</A><BR>>
>> >> k%<A href="http://40gmail.com"
target=_blank>40gmail.com</A><BR>> >> >>
>>>><BR>> >> >> >>>><BR>> >>
>> >>><BR>> >> >> >>><BR>> >>
>> >>><BR>> >> >> >>> --<BR>>
>> >> >>> Barrack O. Otieno<BR>> >> >>
>>> Geneva<BR>> >> >> >>> Skype:
barrack.otieno<BR>> >> >> >>><BR>> >>
>> >>> _______________________________________________<BR>>
>> >> >>> kictanet mailing list<BR>> >> >>
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