Hi Gilda,<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Gilda Odera <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godera@skyweb.co.ke">godera@skyweb.co.ke</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">My greatest concern is that in all this back and
forth accusations, the baby will well be thrown with the water.</font></div></div></blockquote><div> ...<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Given that the ICT industry is in dire need of the
electronic transaction and data protection legal frameworks, amongst many other
things in the proposed bill, why can't the contentious media issues be
removed for further discussion so that other things can continue? The ICT
industry has waited too long for this Bill. It was lumped with the media acts
and now there is too much at stake. Is it too much to ask the Government to
remove the contentious media issues from the Bill so the industry does not
lose more time on this?How will those thousands of jobs be created if there is
no agreement on the Bill. And how will media operate if the Bill is passed with
such contentious issues?</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I feel you.<br><br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Can government meet industry players halfway by
removing the contentious issues and letting the Bill be assented to without
these issues so both industries do not suffer and delays please. It has to be a
give and take.</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br>From other discussants contributions, it appears that if the (Executive arm of) government did this it'd be flouting due legislative process. i.e. breaking the law. I stand to be corrected.<br>
<br>Happy Holidays<br> <br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><br><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>From:</b>
<a title="mike.theuri@gmail.com" href="mailto:mike.theuri@gmail.com" target="_blank">Mike
Theuri</a> </div>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d"><div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="godera@skyweb.co.ke" href="mailto:godera@skyweb.co.ke" target="_blank">Gilda Odera</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">KICTAnet ICT Policy
Discussions</a> </div>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:47
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [kictanet]
[ke-internetusers] Kenyacommunications(amendment)Bill: Is media
overacting?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Brian, </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I hope that the media and other interested parties have taken a cue from
the recent happenings and will now take time to study and understand the
bill. Hopefully the media's petition via the PM was concrete
and included alternative workable proposals. If it did not, the
President and anyone else involved in taking appropriate action will not have
much to work with. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I agree that K24 should be commended for demonstrating
professionalism and leadership. A debate cannot be productive if opposite
sides do not engage freely and openly, neither can it be helpful if either
party is not fully informed so as to understand where the other side is coming
from. For this reason the media would do well to understand the bill not for
the famous clause but for its provisions and work from that standpoint. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>It can also be hoped that all involved will take away valuable
lessons on the need to be proactive in the legislative process.</div>
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:33 AM, Brian Longwe <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:blongwe@gmail.com" target="_blank">blongwe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Mike,<br><br>I
could not agree with you more. What we are witnessing is rabid calls for
deletion of a legal clause that has been in existence since 1998, and isn't
even part of the proposed amendments - without a proposed
alternative.<br><br>It is abundantly clear that neither the media
practitioners, neither the civil society pundits or politicos that are
baying in the streets have really taken time to read through any of this
legislation, nor consider suitable alternatives.<br><br>I personally think
that this episode will serve as a lesson for many - knee-jerk, reactionary
statements that are based on speculation and hyperbole can only lead to
confusion and eventually embarassment.<br><br>I give a thumbs up to the
likes of K24 who have taken a very neutral stand and chosen to air both
sides of the story and work more towards enlightenment than further fuel the
outright lies and misrepresentation that our airwaves have been awash with
over the past few days.<br><br>Brian<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Mike Theuri <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mike.theuri@gmail.com" target="_blank">mike.theuri@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>Crystal, </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Actually, the right to assemble, discuss in public and
protest was never taken away by the Patriot act. Numerous protests and
marches have taken place over the Iraq war, Immigration etc since
then and have been widely covered. Indeed if one was pay a visit
to the environs of the White house, one will find no shortage of
protesters demonstrating any number of issues from Guantanamo by dressing
in orange jump suits and locking themselves in cages, Darfur,
Tibetans acting out torture methods, to calling the current US
administration fascist or for its removal as long as they do not interfere
with others freedoms by being disruptive. The Patriot Act still
stands to date, however a few of its provisions have sunset and
are no longer in law thanks to a refined legislative process
that pays attention to constituents views. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The separation of powers principle is best exemplified in the US. The
Judiciary's independence is one that should be emulated in Kenya. The fact
that unconstitutional laws can be challenged and struck down by the courts
is itself a protection against the infringement of citizen and
non-citizens rights. Take for instance cases such as that of Bin Laden's
driver (Hamdan v. Rumsfeld) or the 5 Algerian Guantanamo detainees where
the US Government did not win in both cases. The fact
that members of congress have signaled their intent to restore habeus
corpus rights to detainees is in itself an indication of standing up
for principle even when popular opinion may not agree with some principles
of basic human rights. There is a lot of work and reform to be done
locally, in ensuring that the different arms of Government can
be as independent and those who are aggrieved by the legislature at
least have an avenue of resort in which they can place their
confidence to fairly strike down what could be considered
unconstitutional. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>At the same time excessive freedom and its abuse is dangerous, were
Kenya the US, elements of the media who engaged in deliberate acts at
the beginning of the year would be in court today being
held civilly liable for their role in inciting violence that led to
the deaths of civilians. Media elements that act recklessly and carry
inappropriate content would be paying hefty fines that could easily
bankrupt them if they chose not change their ways. Yet we find that even
with such regulations, the US media has a level of freedom that is
not quite paralleled around the world. I believe it is clear that the
contentious section 88 has always been present, it is not new,
and thus the Government cannot possibly be trying to now use it to
suppress the people's voices. As with every system there need to be
checks and balances, the media has called for deletion, an approach that
faces legal hurdles, but the media has not been seen to come up with
clear cut alternatives such as amendments that could make it very
difficult if not impossible for section 88 to be abused, these are the
checks the media could be lobbying for placement in the
memorandum. The media fraternity might not be law makers but they
could certainly spend amounts such as the Ksh. 2m spent on
advertising a prayer meeting to explain in layman terms what
*alternatives* as protections they want to be included in the
bill. One way or another there will be laws that deal with the media, a
reality the media should accept and work towards defining rather than
wishing the inevitable goes away.</div>
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Crystal Watley <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crystal@voicesofafrica.org" target="_blank">crystal@voicesofafrica.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br></div></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>The Patriot Act was established in the United States in light of
terrorist activities and the Iraqi war to silence any public discussion
or protest. The US government was able to make a list of organizations
and people they considered to be "terrorists" and to use a variety of
means powers to contain those they believed to be "dangerous to US
interests". This Act was used to arrest many peaceful protesters,
environmental activists, and to detain Muslims without trial for
extended period of time at places like Guantanamo Bay. Every democratic
government must respect human rights. The Patriot Act was a time bound
piece of legislature and it has thus lapsed. Democratic governments
should not attempt to use legislation to suppress the voice of the
people. Kenya is not the only country where a minority of the population
with vested interests have attempted and have often succeeded to
dominate and control the population. We should learn from the lessons of
history, rather than repeat the same mistakes. <br><br>Crystal <br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 7:35 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>David,<br>I thought this UK law would make our section 88 look
like an evening game<br>of soccer. From the
Independent.<br><br>23 November 2003<br><br>Sweeping measures to deal
with terrorist attacks and other emergencies are<br>to be announced
this week, giving the Government power to over-ride civil<br>liberties
in times of crisis, and evacuate threatened areas,
restrict<br>people's movements and confiscate property.<br><br>The
Civil Contingencies Bill, which covers every kind of disaster
from<br>terrorism to the weather, will be the biggest shake-up of
emergency laws<br>since the early part of the last century, replacing
legislation which saw<br>the UK through a world war and the IRA
bombing campaign.<br><br>Some of the proposals in the draft version of
the Bill, drawn up in the<br>summer, have alarmed civil rights
activists, notably a clause that gives<br>the Government the power to
suspend parts or all of the Human Rights Act<br>without a vote by
MPs.<br><br>Once an emergency has been proclaimed by the Queen, the
Government can<br>order the destruction of property, order people to
evacuate an area or ban<br>them from travelling, and "prohibit
assemblies of specified kinds" and<br>"other specified
activities".<br><br>If these rules had been in force during the Iraq
war, critics say, they<br>could have been used to to ban street
demonstrations, making anyone who<br>travelled to protest guilty of a
criminal offence. After a major terrorist<br>attack, forums made up of
local councils, the emergency services and<br>utility companies would
be put in charge of trying to get shattered<br>communities back
together.<br><br><br>Ndemo.<br></div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br><br><br>> Ok. Thanks.<br>><br>> Sent from my
BlackBerry® wireless device<br>><br>> -----Original
Message-----<br>> From: <a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a><br>><br>> Date: Mon, 15
Dec 2008 19:12:04<br>> To: <<a href="mailto:dmakali@yahoo.com" target="_blank">dmakali@yahoo.com</a>><br>> Cc: <<a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a>>; KICTAnet ICT Policy<br>
>
Discussions<<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>><br>> Subject:
Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya<br>>
communications(amendment)Bill: Is media
overacting?<br>><br>><br>> David,<br>> There was a hitch.
It will be in all papers tomorrow and will ensure you<br>>
get the soft copy.<br>><br>><br>>
Ndemo.<br>><br>><br>><br>>><br>>> I have treid to
find the amended bill online with no success; was it<br>>>
uploaded as promised? someone please?<br>>>
david<br>>><br>>><br>>>
_______________<br>>><br>>> "If my doctor told me I had
only six minutes to live,<br>>> I wouldn't brood. I'd type a
little faster."<br>>> â€" Isaac Asimo, Columbian Author and
Scientist<br>>> _______________<br>>><br>>> PO Box
3234<br>>> 00200 Nairobi, Kenya<br>>> cell: +254 722 517
540<br>>><br>>><br>>> --- On Mon, 12/15/08, <a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a> <<a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a>>
wrote:<br>>><br>>>> From: <a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a> <<a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a>><br>>>> Subject: Re:
[kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya<br>>>>
communications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?<br>>>>
To: <a href="mailto:dmakali@yahoo.com" target="_blank">dmakali@yahoo.com</a><br>>>> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT
Policy Discussions" <<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>><br>>>>
Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 1:04 AM<br>>>>
Mike,<br>>>> Thank you for your objective views. You
know very well<br>>>> that there are<br>>>>
thousands of youth out there who have patiently waited
for<br>>>> this bill to<br>>>> allow them trade
on-line. Now Media calls theirs.<br>>>><br>>>>
The outcomes of the Kriegler and Waki would hopefully
deal<br>>>> with political<br>>>> impunity.
Who will deal with media impunity? In my
view<br>>>> we must push<br>>>> this Bill to ensure
that electronic media does not continue<br>>>> to corrupt
our<br>>>> children's minds.<br>>>><br>>>>
Ndemo.<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> > Dr.
Ndemo,<br>>>> ><br>>>> > I hope that the media
note that they are on the wrong<br>>>> path and move
to<br>>>> > change their approach. In hindsight they might
realize<br>>>> that the issues at<br>>>> > hand
could have been tackled differently.The<br>>>> media's most
recent actions<br>>>> > only make it more difficult to
resolve the very same<br>>>> issues they are<br>>>>
> protesting.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > The
Nation's editorial perhaps represents the<br>>>> divergence
in views between<br>>>> > the media owners, their
supporters and responsible<br>>>> journalists who
may<br>>>> > have<br>>>> > seen that things
are steering in a dangerous<br>>>> direction. As the
matter<br>>>> > drags<br>>>> > on, various
elements will try to take advantage and<br>>>> jump onto
the<br>>>> > bandwagon<br>>>> > to further
certain agendas. It is this catalyst that<br>>>> is
worrisome, as<br>>>> > there<br>>>> > is the
possibility that just as the media issue has<br>>>> somehow
been tied to<br>>>> > economic issues, the media issue
could easily be<br>>>> misused by those who
have<br>>>> > little to do with the media.<br>>>>
><br>>>> > The country has many volatile problems that
should not<br>>>> be exploited, some<br>>>> >
of<br>>>> > those jumping onto the media bandwagon may be
seeking<br>>>> to detract from<br>>>> > matters
facing them, others have personal agendas in<br>>>> mind that
can only<br>>>> > progress if they are disguised as media
and economic<br>>>> issues. The media<br>>>> >
hopefully is looking at these issues in a responsible<br>>>>
manner, will<br>>>> > exercise<br>>>> >
diplomacy and engage the Government in a civil way as<br>>>>
the best way to<br>>>> > resolve the impasse. There are
many Kenyans suffering<br>>>> today from
matters<br>>>> > not<br>>>> > within their
control, it is a dangerous thing for the<br>>>> media to act
in a<br>>>> > way<br>>>> > that could easily
stir these masses to non-civil<br>>>> action as measures
are<br>>>> > being taken to alleviate these problems. The
media has<br>>>> a corporate<br>>>> >
responsibility in ensuring that it exhausts all civil<br>>>>
means of ensuring<br>>>> > the<br>>>> >
matters are resolved.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > It is
encouraging to know that the Government is open<br>>>> for
discussion, but<br>>>> > there is only so much that the
Government can do on<br>>>> legislative
matters.<br>>>> > The<br>>>> > Government can
draft, prepare and adjust laws but it<br>>>> cannot pass the
same<br>>>> > in<br>>>> > parliament. The
media must do more on its own in<br>>>> approaching not just
key<br>>>> > leaders but ultimately the legislators who
actually<br>>>> vote to pass the same<br>>>> >
laws.<br>>>> ><br>>>> ><br>>>> >
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 5:11 PM,<br>>>> <<a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a>> wrote:<br>>>>
><br>>>> >> Thanks Theuri,<br>>>> >>
Since Government is open for discussion, diplomacy<br>>>>
would yield better<br>>>> >> results. I have seen
their action plan which by<br>>>> the way violates
cck<br>>>> >> licence agreement it is not the best rout
to take.<br>>>> Having spent all<br>>>>
>> weekend<br>>>> >> using public resources
(frequencies) to propagate<br>>>> violence, they
should<br>>>> >> at<br>>>> >> least wait
to hear from cck.<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> If
you read today's Nation editorial on how to<br>>>> end
impunity including<br>>>> >> media<br>>>>
>> impunity you wonder if they are the same
people<br>>>> inciting the public to<br>>>> >>
violence.<br>>>> >><br>>>> >>
Ndemo<br>>>> >> Sent from my
BlackBerry(R)<br>>>> >><br>>>> >>
-----Original Message-----<br>>>> >> From: "Mike
Theuri"<br>>>> <<a href="mailto:mike.theuri@gmail.com" target="_blank">mike.theuri@gmail.com</a>><br>>>>
>><br>>>> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008
13:19:01<br>>>> >> To: <<a href="mailto:bitange@jambo.co.ke" target="_blank">bitange@jambo.co.ke</a>><br>>>> >> Cc:
KICTAnet ICT Policy<br>>>> Discussions<<a href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>><br>>>>
>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers]
Kenya<br>>>> communications<br>>>> >>
(amendment)Bill: Is media
overacting?<br>>>> >><br>>>>
>><br>>>> >>
_______________________________________________<br>>>>
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</div></div></blockquote></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Crystal "Naliaka" Watley<br>Voices of
Africa<br><a href="mailto:crystal@voicesofafrica.org" target="_blank">crystal@voicesofafrica.org</a><br><a href="http://www.voicesofafrica.org/" target="_blank">http://www.voicesofafrica.org/</a><br><br>"You must be the
change you wish to see" -
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