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Yes Eric, <div><br></div><div>But SAT-3's lack of impact was largely because it was controlled by the big bad boys, who kept (and continue to keep) the price of "getting in" very high. Which obviously creates barriers for both sides. Anyway all of this is well documented (and you have written a lot of it ;-) so you know where I'm coming from...</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><html>On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Eric M.K Osiakwan wrote:</html><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div>Generally, thats how the world system works. You have to build internally and that becomes a value that people want so would coalise towards you. So many people criticise the governance system in China, including President Bush who even did so on his way there but all those people were and are in Beijing. There are emerging reasoning on how China is going to sharp the future of the Internet espeically because of their revoluionary lead in IPv6 research, watch that space....</div><div><br></div><div>Brian, for your information SAT3 landed in Accra since 2001 and it did not change the payments for transit automatically, other factors come into play which we would must equally work on. That is why i advocate that our participation in the global fora on trade (WTO), IP (WIPO) finance, technology (ICANN, IGF, etc) etc is important but at the same time, we must be building more cables, ixps and the critical infrastructure on the continent. I would say lets allocate 80% of our resources on the internal building and 20% on the external works.</div><div><br></div>Eric here<div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 14 Aug 2008, at 10:43, Brian Munyao Longwe wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div>Hmm, interesting - I think that what Harry was alluding to is the "build it and they will come" paradigm where we focus on the development of our local internet i.e. content, applications, infrastructure - and the rest of the world will notice and beat a path to our door i.e. they will pay the cost of the infrastructure to connect to us.</div><div><br></div><div>While this could be shrugged off as an idealist approach it has worked very well for most of Asia and Europe. Of course, those continents have had international fiber optic infrastructure to support the "influx" from the developed countries. Methinks we will see a shift in payments for transit once our fiber networks hit the shore next year.</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><div><br></div><br><div>On Aug 14, 2008, at 9:59 AM, mwende njiraini wrote:<br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><font face="Calibri">Dear Harry,</font></span><br></p></div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%">The Internet is a global network and its value is in provision of comprehensive end-to-end universal connectivity</span> <span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%">to end-users.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Unlike the public switched telephone network (PSTN) where operators were obligated to interconnect, firms providing Internet infrastructure and services are driven to interconnect by the economic force of positive externalities/effects (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_externality">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_externality</a>).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>As a result the internet now has a global spread leading to the promotion of economic growth, expanded social opportunities, improved process efficiency and responsiveness of institutions and markets, ease of access to information, resources and services, etc.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><font face="Calibri">Based on the forgoing argument, it would not be wise to have an entirely 'local' internet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>However, there are countries such as China and Russia that have threatened to create their own separate internet however such moves have been resisted based on the risk of "international isolation and government censorship" (</font><a href="http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/7563"><font face="Calibri">http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/7563</font></a><font face="Calibri"> and </font><a href="http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/84378/china-to-split-the-internet.html"><font face="Calibri">http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/84378/china-to-split-the-internet.html</font></a><font face="Calibri">).</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><font face="Calibri">Regards</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><font face="Calibri">Mwende</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><font face="Calibri">Disclaimer: The comments are the author's own.</font></span></p><br> </div> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 8/13/08, <b class="gmail_sendername">Harry Hare</b> <<a href="mailto:harry@africanedevelopment.org">harry@africanedevelopment.org</a>> wrote:</span> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <div lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue"> <div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Dear Mwende and Walu,</span></p><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">This is an interesting discourse and would like to throw another twist to it. How necessary is international bandwidth to us? Suppose we had our content issues in order and have our own facebook, yahoo, msn, skype etc would it be necessary to buy international bandwidth? In other words can we create our own local internet? Should we put policies in place that encourage "inward bound" internet traffic that will utilize local infrastructure and bandwidth as opposed to "outword bound" that is dependent on international links?</span></p><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Kindest Regards</span></p><p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Harry </span></p><div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> kictanet-bounces+harry=<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://africanedevelopment.org/" target="_blank">africanedevelopment.org</a>@<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/" target="_blank">lists.kictanet.or.ke</a> [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry" target="_blank">kictanet-bounces+harry</a>=<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://africanedevelopment.org/" target="_blank">africanedevelopment.org</a>@<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/" target="_blank">lists.kictanet.or.ke</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>mwende njiraini<br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:04 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:harry@africanedevelopment.org" target="_blank">harry@africanedevelopment.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [kictanet] Day 3 of 10:-IGF Discussions, Internet Interconnection Charges</span></p></div> <div><span class="e" id="q_11bbd5cdacf395a3_1"><div> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10pt"><p style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span>In traditional telephony call termination revenues are shared between operators and are based on negotiated interconnection rates, in a regulated environment, rather than the size and number of subscribers on the network. (I stand to be corrected) Developing countries for a long time have benefited from revenues generated from this international settlement scheme. However, these revenues are rapidly being eroded by VoIP, which is encouraged by 'loosely regulated' flat rate pricing of internet bandwidth. The issue internet interconnection is based on the fact that international ISPs have no incentive to enter shared-cost peering with ISPs developing countries thus forcing them to incur the full cost of transmitting international traffic. What incentives need to be put in place to encourage shared-cost peering? Content development? </span></p> </div> <div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10pt"><div style="text-align: justify; "> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></div><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span>There is raging debate on "network neutrality"; with network operators seeking to price network access on the basis of utilization in a bid to manage network congestion. In the US, for example the recent Comcast case has resulted in the regulator, FCC, ruling that Comcast 'discriminatory' network management practices were illegal. To overcome the challenge of network congestion several proposals have been made including the introduction of bandwidth metered services. Vint Cerf, Google's chief internet evangelist, has proposed that ISPs should "introduce transmission caps allowing users to purchase access to the Internet at a given minimum data rate, which would be guaranteed even during times of congestion." Net neutrality is definitely an issue we may need to consider with reference to the current developments in national and international fibre optic projects. </span></p><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span>References:</span></p><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10007079-93.html" target="_blank"><span>http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10007079-93.html</span></a></p><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span>Regards</span></p><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span>Mwende</span></p><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><span>Disclaimer: Comments are author's own.</span></p><div style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div><p><span>On 8/13/08, <b>John Walubengo</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:jwalu@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jwalu@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</span> </p><p>Plse feel free to belatedly contribute on Day 1 or 2 themes, jst remember to pick the correct subject line. Meanwhile today we should discuss one of IG issues that touch squarely on the retail cost of Internet Service in developing countries- the Internet Interconnection Charges (IIC, in short)<br> <br>This issue is fairly complex and explosive but we could try and understand if we used a simplified model for Mobile Phone Interconnection Charges and Relationships. Consider mobile phone company, X with 8million customers and mobile phone company, Y with 2 million customers. Each company is supposed to compensate (pay) the other for terminating calls originating from the other. In such a relationship, the bigger company X, can chose to dictate how much the smaller company, Y pays it to terminate the 'Y' calls to its bigger 'X' network/customers.<br> <br>This is losely similar to what is called Transit relationship on the Internet. The big internet networks (Tier 1 and 2 Internet Backbone Providers) in US/Europe get to dictate how much the smaller networks in developing countries need to pay in order to terminate their internet requests for email, web, dns, voip and other services into their Network. Even our much celebrated TEAMS, EASsy and other projects cannot escape these Transit Interconnection Costs. Ofcourse if you do not like their Interconnection Charges you are free to take a walk into nowhere (read: stay offline).<br> <br>Another relationship does exist, the Peer-to-Peer relationship which is equivalent to Mobile phone company Y and company X both having equal or similar number of customers/value e.g. 5million each. In such a relationship, the two Internet Backbone/Service providers chose NOT to charge each other anything. Traffic between the two is exchanged reciprically for free but below each of this big Networks are the smaller networks (read African networks), that must pay Transit Charges. Put bluntly, Africa and other developing countries are subsidizing Internet Costs for the rich nations in the North.<br> <br>Many studies have been carried out to get us out of this fix such as the Halfway-propositions, the ICAIS, etc but todate the status quo remains. The standard response has remained 'If it current interconnection models are working, why should you try and fix them?'<br> <br>1 day for comments, corrections and/or proposals on this theme.<br><br>walu.<br><br>Ref: for some of the Studies:<br>International Charging Arrangements for Internet Services, Module I, ICAIS, p.3<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.tmdenton.com/pub/reports/icais_mod1_ch1.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.tmdenton.com/pub/reports/icais_mod1_ch1.pdf</a><br> <br>The Half-Way Proposition.<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.balancingact-africa.com/news/back/balancing-act_130.html" target="_blank">http://www.balancingact-africa.com/news/back/balancing-act_130.html</a><br> <br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>kictanet mailing list<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" target="_blank">kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke</a><br> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet" target="_blank">http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet</a><br><br>This message was sent to: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:mwende.njiraini@gmail.com" target="_blank">mwende.njiraini@gmail.com</a><br> Unsubscribe or change your options at <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mwende.njiraini%40gmail.com" target="_blank">http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mwende.njiraini%40gmail.com</a></p> </div><div> <br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; 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