[kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook

Tue Nov 20 20:30:42 EAT 2018

A bit of research would help you to ascertain why Sir doesn’t make sense in this context.

On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>> wrote:

Happy to engage Sir but no free ideas from me. Sorry.

Is there a global conspiracy to "bash" facebook? Because FB issues are trending *worldwide*...  :-)

Good night.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:14:01 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

I will add-I’m not engaging to win an argument. Facebook evolves our approach continuously as a direct result of learning more. I have learned so much from fierce critics in this group and many others. So if there are specific ideas you have, or constructive criticisms, I genuinely do want to hear more. And conversely, I should think you might want to take advantage of hearing more about how the company actually works from an insider. If it’s just an exchange of stereotypes about business/vigorous company bashing you’re after, then that’s fair! It’s much less interesting to me, however, and not a great use of my time so in that case I’d leave you to it, Brother Maina.

On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

You haven’t answered any of my questions.

I have repasted, for reference-

Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook?

How do you think policing works in society?
Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?
How do you think actual communities work?

If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view?

What is an “educating” model?

On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>> wrote:

On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested.

I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement.

There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes to profits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!".

Take ownership.

Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=>

<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=>

Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits

Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi at fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi at fb.com>> wrote:

What is an “educating” model?

How do you think policing works in society?
Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?
How do you think actual communities work?

If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view?

On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>> wrote:

It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that?

Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community?

If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off.

Sidenotes:
a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression".
b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes?

Good evening.
Patrick.

"We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook.

I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform."

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi at fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi at fb.com>> wrote:

At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report?

 Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model.

From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com at lists.kictanet.or.ke>> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>>
Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>>
Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM
To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi at fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi at fb.com>>
Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>>
Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook

Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues:

1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers?

2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose?

3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share?

4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times?

5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why?

I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions).

Good day listers,

Patrick.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

Hi,

Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'.

The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction.

In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online.

Wainaina

On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

Hi listers,

Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb.

It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform.

Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why?

Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa?

Is it government? And just how far can the government reach?

Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the  end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet.

Nice day everyone.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=I4IOH2koaO6-NJjPRvRdexDJ7Ql-pcmXaIrU78dSQr0&e=>

_______________________________________________
kictanet mailing list
kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=1IkGlwtZrFSlDdArXzLxsAEC8Czi6lfk7MdtMKSwIBg&e=>
Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=7xCG8z1Jt76BbPAx71u7hm523bjmRI7_a7K8mpxlPZ0&e=>
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eacdirectory.co.ke&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=hoV-MvFtkR_byHfGtk0S9IINKvi4nJoBRMEwL5SELEU&e=>

Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_pmaina2000-2540yahoo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=FsTedFucoLNyMt0sShCdaLskvAmiS2lA5uq_6-r4EEw&e=>

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________
kictanet mailing list
kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=NaYcUPZj9XQ7AlZPaDfcKoImMK2K1qWPeirISjv2ojw&s=gbZV4UJyIA0fZviXCZHAogu838NFmKFwNAremATFkjo&e=
Twitter: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=NaYcUPZj9XQ7AlZPaDfcKoImMK2K1qWPeirISjv2ojw&s=MZgbDdI1aLr6hh2UKV_Ar82BPFkrcnfbLIa6AceddCY&e=
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
Domain Registration sponsored by https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eacdirectory.co.ke&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=NaYcUPZj9XQ7AlZPaDfcKoImMK2K1qWPeirISjv2ojw&s=98idWglRcx7VF8dDeuKE8E6qKe24pd1OOdlESgKu7dg&e=

Unsubscribe or change your options at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_ebeleokobi-2540fb.com&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=NaYcUPZj9XQ7AlZPaDfcKoImMK2K1qWPeirISjv2ojw&s=bJB8FeY_VfBWS1l8kmuKuGRwJEZJy0BaHFy-dtVgobQ&e=

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
_______________________________________________
kictanet mailing list
kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=nYt1FfwtoRsa5p9EaHdB22swWRmUEm84bG87utkmCU0&s=x7gjttInDb5pnq7KQoEY_cBGWmUSGCcyc_8Sjb8YQsE&e=>
Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=nYt1FfwtoRsa5p9EaHdB22swWRmUEm84bG87utkmCU0&s=qPaclDDm684caBHvI-PuWlmV2Xov2_m6jm2__T7RuNI&e=>
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke>

Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_pmaina2000-2540yahoo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=nYt1FfwtoRsa5p9EaHdB22swWRmUEm84bG87utkmCU0&s=KsObw34UhAI9KmaLA51a-BbHwSwslqFV7MQJoJOXao0&e=>

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/pipermail/kictanet/attachments/20181120/0bdb94f3/attachment.htm>