[kictanet] [Singapore] Telcos regulator seeks to monitor WhatsApp

Thu Nov 8 07:57:26 EAT 2018

Patrick +++

With you on this one....

On Wed, 7 Nov 2018, 21:01 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet <
kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke wrote:

> Ali, that means you're calling BS on Tim Berners-Lee (*the* www inventor)
> because he shares very similar views on big tech concentration risks... You
> are also "calling out" the US gov, Chinese Gov, Russian Gov, all of Europe,
> the UK, Singapore Gov and AU combined... literally the whole world.
>
> WOW! that's a pretty HUGE call out boss. You'd need some really good
> sources / data to back that up.
>
> Regulating dominant dinosaurs (even the scary T-Rexes) is beneficial to
> the overall economy because it is how you open the door to:
>
>    - fresh thought
>    - transformative (rather than sustaining) innovations
>    - game changing products that might never have seen the light of day
>    (due to blocking moves by dinosaurs)
>    - new sources of foreign exchange
>    - new types of jobs (even entirely new industry sectors); and
>    - new frontiers of economic growth.
>
> This virtuous cycle of innovation and new enterprises is what sustains
> modern economies.
>
> It's not even my idea; I'm just articulating a global debate that is
> increasingly gaining traction locally. Check out these articles which
> contain compelling arguments from credible sources:
>
>
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-internet-regulation/big-tech-must-be-regulated-says-inventor-of-world-wide-web-idUSKCN1GO2CD
>
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/30/us-and-china-want-to-regulate-big-tech-like-national-security-firms.html
>
> Tony Blair: we must regulate big tech properly and prepare for China's AI
> threat
> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tony-blair-technology-regulation-government>
>
> Tony Blair: we must regulate big tech properly and prepare for China's A...
>
> Thomas McMullan
>
> The former Labour leader says the government should move to regulate tech,
> that social media is for loudmouths a...
>
> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tony-blair-technology-regulation-government>
>
>
>
> Have a great evening!
> Patrick.
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2018, 4:07:51 PM GMT+3, Ali Hussein <
> ali at hussein.me.ke> wrote:
>
>
> Patrick A. M. Maina
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-a-m-maina-18750b8/> I'm calling you
> out on your BS. Said lovingly of coz! 😁. I'd agree with you if the only
> start-ups then were Microsoft, Google, Facebook etc. For every Microsoft
> there are thousands other start-ups that fell by the wayside who enjoyed
> the same 'Regulatory Privileges' you keep on harping about. The same goes
> to Amazon et al. To impune that they had a monopoly of manipulating
> regulatory failures is intellectually dishonest. Have you forgotten
> MySpace? Friendster? These giants of their day were bigger than Facebook
> way back when Zuckerberg was still wet in the ears and hadn't even printed
> his 'CEO, Bitch!' business card.😁 The question should really be this:-
> How do we reign in start-ups from being ecosystem Bulldozers? And how do
> we control them going forward if by chance they escape and become bad
> Ecosystem Players. Short of that let's all go back to the stone age where
> we all share what we hunt or gather. My two cents.
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> *Principal*
>
> *AHK & Associates*
>
>
>
> Tel: +254 713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
> <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
>
>
> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,
>
> Chiromo Road, Westlands,
>
> Nairobi, Kenya.
>
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
> organizations that I work with.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 11:38 AM Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Morning Ali,
>
> Today's big tech were yesterday's startups who benefitted from
> preferential competition regulations that protected them from being crushed
> by the giants of that period or at least allowed them to grab a solid
> marketshare through some limited exclusivity arrangement.
>
> Research any monopolistic big tech and you will likely find a string of
> affirmative actions by its Government during its early stages of growth.
>
> As a young startup, Microsoft reportedly benefitted from regulations that
> clipped IBM's powers; then it grew too powerful and was perceived to be
> hindering innovation leading to anti-trust regulations against it, that are
> believed to have paved way for the FANG quintet (among others)...
>
> Now the FANGs are too powerful (and no longer as innovative) so there is
> talk of clipping them to pave way for a new wave of innovative technologies.
>
> That is how you maximize innovation ecosystems and technological progress.
> Darlings evolve from tiny vulnerable babies to giant elephants, then become
> *dinosaurs* and if they are allowed to maintain status quo, they crush
> innovators leading to slow down of progress and a steady loss of
> competitive advantage for the host country (in our case, Kenya).
>
> By creating space for new generations of startups to thrive - governments
> facilitate the next wave of tech revolution / transformation.
>
> For example, no matter how well Safaricom, a telcomms pipe tech expert,
> claims to know eCommerce, music, agriculture, or health, or edu, or
> security, or social, or TV, you can bet there is a laser focused local
> start-up with *far better* technical ability and insights that has been
> pushed out of that space due to sheer resource and market power imbalance.
> This is how innovation is being stifled in Kenya.
>
> Safaricom easily leverages its subscriber/agency/marketing network for
> example to quickly dominate a space. But this is not a good thing because
> its a *blocking* move by a dinosaur that fears innovation, rather than a
> transformation move IMO.
>
> An established player cannot have the same level of hunger, passion,
> agility and insights in *multiple* sectors compared to a young startup
> dedicated to that sector. This argument holds anywhere, including in
> advanced economies.
>
> Some links:
>
>
> https://qz.com/1317231/what-the-microsoft-antitrust-case-can-teach-us-about-regulating-big-tech/amp/
>
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2018/08/09/why-innovation-and-regulation-should-work-together/amp/
>
>
> https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2018-03-23/regulating-facebook-and-big-tech-could-power-a-new-era-of-growth
>
> Enjoy your day.
> Patrick.
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2018, 6:37:51 AM GMT+3, Ali Hussein <
> ali at hussein.me.ke> wrote:
>
>
> Patrick
>
> Something we agree on! :-)
>
> Completely with you on the China, US comparison on Internet Freedoms and
> subversion.
>
> On the issue of #BigTech. I'm conflicted. Here's my take:-
>
> 1. When these giants were in their infancy we celebrated them. They
> offered us something that was outside our reach - Internet Tools that we
> use now - email, search, networking at scale (facebook, Linkedin etc),
> cloud storage etc literally for free. Did we not think that at some point
> that the Pied Piper will come calling to collect?
>
> 2. The Global Tech Ecosystem probably won't exist as we know it today if
> it weren't for the dirt cheap, Pay As You Go models of cloud computing,
> pioneered by Amazon and copied by almost all the the big tech companies
> today. What would the alternative be? I know for a fact that a number of
> startups I'm involved in wont be in existence or we at least won't be
> plotting Global Dominance if it weren't for this infrastructure.
>
> 3. Lastly, why are we abrogating the role of regulators in keeping
> everyone honest and fair.
>
> What can we do to ensure we don't throw the baby with the bath water?
>
> Regards
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> *Principal*
>
> *AHK & Associates*
>
>
>
> Tel: +254 713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
> <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
>
>
> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,
>
> Chiromo Road, Westlands,
>
> Nairobi, Kenya.
>
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
> organizations that I work with.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 3:33 AM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> Bhaves, that is an obvious propaganda piece because it contains distorted
> half truths, lopsided PoV pushing, innuendo, exaggerations, unwarranted
> speculations and so forth. Not worth the time spent reading it.
>
> Not to mention that the US and china are in the middle of a dominance
> battle (and have been ideological opponents for ages).
>
> Ideologically loaded debates are like debates between different religions
> on the "true way". Positions are deeply entrenched. Lines between facts and
> belief are nonexistent. Approach is zero sum. Even intellectuals struggle
> with ideological arguments (unaware of their own bias blind spots).
>
> Have you heard of the NSA and the chaos that it has brought into global
> cyberspace over the last 10 years? Google/Bing/Yandex it!
>
> The only difference between US and China in cyberspace is that the former
> subverts internet freedoms *covertly* (and very effectively) using
> sophisticated backdoors, trojans etc, because the local laws don't allow,
> whereas the latter (China) operates within a legal framework and acts in
> the open in the interests of its own people and ideology.
>
> Because no one knows exactly how far/deep the NSA goes, they have a
> stronger propaganda position, except when they make a mistake.. then people
> start to wonder (see link).
>
> https://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/15/global-cyberattack-nsa-238412
>
> The US also has a very well coordinated mainstream media that is fiercely
> committed to its elite's ideology and highly propaganda savvy. Its
> literally an information warfare army that has been accused many times of
> brainwashing not just the world, but US citizens as well. Very impressive
> and amazingly effective.
>
> Impossible to debate propaganda. I give up.
>
> :-D
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 9:00:56 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah <
> bhaves.shah at jabjabgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> Something of interest -
> https://qz.com/africa/1447015/china-is-helping-african-countries-control-the-internet/
> <https://qz.com/africa/1447015/china-is-helping-african-countries-control-the-internet/?utm_content=79373561&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter>
>
> Cheers!
> Bhaves
>
> On 6 Nov 2018, at 7:52 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the heads-up Bhaves. This is very interesting and confirms that
> social media misuse is indeed a global problem (even for advanced
> economies).
>
> Have a great evening!
>
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 6:54:37 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah <
> bhaves.shah at jabjabgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> Patrick:
>
> Your arguments are good and I do respect them, any maybe even Singapore
> government is listening to you when thwarting fake news -
> https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/select-committee-releases-22-proposals-to-combat-fake-news
>
>
> Bhaves Shah
> Founder-CEO
> JabJab Group Ltd
> +254 707 306639
> website - www.jabjabgroup.com
> twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroup
> facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah at jabjabgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> Patrick:
>
> This is my personal opinion, so when I am referring to your point being
> moot it is my own opinion, however it does not mean that my opinion is the
> only out there, everyone is there contribute. As for answering your
> questions see below:
>
> 1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram
> that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way
> they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local
> legally compliant copycats)? Why?
> Firstly, technology is about evolution and these apps have evolved. It is
> not the apps that are creating the content, these are platforms where
> people are free to create the content, however as the apps have become
> large scale the issues related to facilitate crime or chaos has also
> evolved, but in the same manner the ecosystem will also thrive to safeguard
> with new innovations from abuse. The biggest culprits of the abuse is
> always governments itself. There is something called choice, no one has
> imposed these apps on anyone, each individual has a right to use them as
> they deem fit. However, everyone should know the risks, and that comes
> through education not government control.
>
> 2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who
> should pay for that burden? Why?
> What burden are your referring to, when national security is at stake,
> there could be case of such instances, however like I have said these apps
> have been abused by the same governments to control the masses within the
> ecosystem. There should be mechanisms or safeguards for abuse, however
> having full control of such apps and denying citizens to use these
> platforms for dissemination of information should not be constrained. Are
> we thriving to become a "police" state where every conversation is looked
> as a threat to governments.
>
> 3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If
> not, why not?
> Like any legal requirement if there is a criminal element to the
> dissemination of information, then the burden of proof is for the
> government to furnish the proof for these companies to comply with the law.
> However, just by saying "this is a threat" to a government, that does not
> hold water, the state must prove it's argument, otherwise just as well shut
> the entire ecosystem, and then deal with the masses and the consequences of
> free speech.
>
> 4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold
> extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not?
> The collection of data happens with every software you use, it is a choice
> a consumer makes for one to use such an app. The better the informed public
> is about the data, the better choices one makes. In my opinion parts of
> GDPR are good for privacy for citizens, and maybe those should be adapted
> locally if done properly, it should not be a copy and paste exercise.
>
> 5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated
> engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in
> local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that
> engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion
> dollar 21st century resource!
> Like any business everything is being manipulated. Look at consumer goods
> companies that sell their products, there is a form of manipulation going
> on. For example look at the way the food and beverage companies manipulate
> people to believing their products are good for health etc when in actual
> fact they are not good for health. Manipulation of the mind for any product
> or service is the end game for one to be a customer for that particular
> product or service - everyone has a choice to make. Its all about
> education..
>
> 6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use
> advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts*
> and *narcissists*?  If yes, how do we gain from that?
> There is no one mortgaging the future, we all know that there are good and
> bad with every product and service, millions of people are being abused
> even by not using these apps, but using physical goods made by consumer
> companies. The issue is that technology revolution, innovation and
> disruption will remain no matter how we look at it, there is nothing going
> to stop that, but like I said everyone needs to play their part in
> educating the people of the good and evil...Controls don't achieve
> anything, it just breeds a behaviour of circumvention especially with the
> younger generation who are growing up in the era of information and
> technology.
>
> I hope my views are accepted, just as a side note, I am not imposing my
> beliefs on anyone, everyone has a right to choose and decide, I believe in
> that freedom of choice, I am of less control, but more education.
>
>
> Bhaves Shah
> Founder-CEO
> JabJab Group Ltd
> +254 707 306639
> website - www.jabjabgroup.com
> twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroup
> facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:16 PM Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your comment Bhaves,
>
> Firstly an argument can't be moot just because you say so hehe (on a light
> note). You are not addressing the specific points that I have raised: Can
> you address them so that the refutation is clear and on point?
>
> 1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram
> that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way
> they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local
> legally compliant copycats)? Why?
>
> 2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who
> should pay for that burden? Why?
>
> 3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If
> not, why not?
>
> 4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold
> extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not?
>
> 5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated
> engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in
> local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that
> engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion
> dollar 21st century resource!
>
> 6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use
> advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts*
> and *narcissists*?  If yes, how do we gain from that?
>
> I'd love to read your specific views on each of these points.
>
> Brgds,
> Patrick.
>
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 5:44:35 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah <
> bhaves.shah at jabjabgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> Patrick:
>
> Your argument is moot..
>
> A very simple analogy when email was introduced and now used by the entire
> world - are you taxing email platforms..So why hold the same argument for
> these OTT applications - why pay for services that the government never
> invented in the first place..
>
> The basic premise is that without technology disruption our society will
> never advance and governments are the worst culprits of such hindrance to
> society’s advancement in this world..
>
> Governments love to control and that fact alone is a motivator to
> circumvent such an ecosystem..The premise of human advancement is adapting
> to new revolutions and disruptions..
>
> Governments should not hinder progress and when it comes to collecting
> revenues from so called innovators and disruptors then bring such companies
> to Kenya to set up base and provide them with incentives and ask them to
> employ Kenyan citizens etc - drive such an encouragement with finding
> suitable models for advancement of societies..
>
> Taxation is just a cheap way of protectionism - it does not work..It
> impedes human progress..
>
> Cheers!
> Bhaves
>
> On 6 Nov 2018, at 5:18 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> OK I'm back (briefly). Thanks for your points Mr. Okobi,
>
> Actually the only difference between "taxes" and "fines" is the
> definition. Taxes can be based on anything - not just earnings. Example:
> What is VAT? A tax on consumption! Why should you pay extra tax on
> consumption after you have already been taxed on income? Does that make
> sense? Is that not fining or penalizing people for enjoying their *already
> taxed* money?
>
> Another example: why tax food or books? These are essential must-have
> items. I should not be taxed to eat or educate my kids. Isn't that not a
> form of "existence tax"? What about tax on sanitary pads? Is that not
> discriminating against girls (they end up paying more taxes than boys
> because its a gender-specific essential purchase). Why tax people for
> keeping clean babies (diaper tax)? Why tax people for going to work (fuel
> VAT)? etc etc. I'd love to hear your views about the rationality of these
> taxes.
>
> Oh, btw, even the fines one pays in court are a form of
> compliance/obedience tax. Those who follow the rules pay less taxes (thus
> encouraging compliance). Anyway, lets not get stuck on definitions but I'd
> urge you to read some good books on taxation & economics to get a grip of
> this.
>
> Okay, who has said anything about taxing "online services" or "all online
> services"? That is a strawman argument that diverts attention from the real
> issue. I am only talking about online apps with high potential for *abuse
> at scale*, which imposes a heavy cost burden on Governments and/or society
> (e.g. Facebook, Whatsapp, Telegram etc). These apps (and their problematic
> architectures) are well known and Governments worldwide are scrambling to
> find solutions to the problems that they have enabled/amplified by design.
>
> Why should Kenyan taxpayers *subsidize* the fixing of costly problems
> caused/facilitated/amplified by these foreign billion dollar apps who don't
> contribute their share of taxes locally or accept their share of
> responsibility? This is a form of reverse taxation where our Government is
> effectively "paying" taxes to Facebook and Whatsapp!
>
> Tobacco analogy might help elucidate the issue: When tax funds are spent
> on lung cancer treatment for cigarette smokers, isn't that a subsidy paid
> by taxpayers - including non-smokers, to Tobacco companies? Looks like a
> no-brainer nowadays but it took a while (and similar debates) for Tobacco
> companies to accept because it takes decades for lung cancer to form. Many
> even paid for fake scientific studies to disprove claims that Tobacco
> smoking is harmful. Very similar to what some notorious data aggregating
> multinationals have been accused of doing.
>
> Glad that you accept that there is indeed a cost burden for Government
> (and society) from fake news that is amplified by these social media
> platforms like Facebook and whatsapp. At least we have a common
> understanding that there is a real problem.
>
> Is there data? Yes, the data does exist which directly associates these
> apps (e.g. Whatsapp & facebook) to crime, addiction, subversion, mob
> violence and deaths. See my earlier post on this with several links.
>
> Why are we so attached to these apps? How many jobs do they create here?
> How do we benefit from them such that they are not irreplaceable by local
> clones? Perhaps that is the question that we should be asking.
>
> The 21st Century tax innovations that I am proposing may be difficult to
> grasp because they does not yet exist and require a non-traditional view of
> how businesses operate (especially those based on the Silicon Valley VC and
> Data Mining model). But that is where the world is heading.
>
> Citizens data is a national product. Should off-shore data aggregation /
> mining multinationals get it for free? Should they be allowed to
> manipulate/brainwash us or our children - in order to monetize the ensuing
> engagement - and then let us bear whatever consequences that ensue
> downstream? Should they be allowed to facilitate the spread of
> disinformation by design - even with the risk of causing harm or deaths to
> innocent victims? Should they impose new/heavier cost burdens on
> governments. Should they be allowed to facilitate and protect criminals by
> design?
>
>  These are 21st century issues that didn't even exist 10 years ago. They
> require 21st century thinking and solutions.
>
> Cheers & have a great evening!
> Patrick.
>
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:47:48 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <
> ebeleokobi at fb.com> wrote:
>
>
> If your model is not revenue based, then what you are talking about is not
> a tax, it’s a fine.
>
>  I’m curious as to what data you are using to determine that online
> services are “net negative”? Is this your assessment for Kenya
> specifically, or is your contention that globally, all online services
> provide net negative value to the world? There are multiple studies on the
> economic and social benefit of online services, so I am quite interested in
> learning of those which substantiate the net negative claim.
>
> Also, is this specific to Facebook products, or all online services,
> including those created by Kenyans?
>
> And would this tax regime be a global tax-in other words, should it also
> apply to Kenyan companies operating globally? For example, for those on
> this list with Kenyan companies offering online services, should this tax
> regime apply to them in Kenya? Should, for ex., Uganda apply a similar
> regime for Kenyan companies offering online services there?
>
> In terms of the metrics you propose-Facebook is a public company, as are
> many companies offering online services. What is the relevance of funds
> raised in this context? In addition-valuation for a public company is a
> completely different metric than funds raised-curious as to how this would
> be made  predictable, given that a good environment for economic growth
> depends to a great extent on a rationalized policy and regulatory
> environment?
>
> As for the security issues-i have acknowledged previously the challenges
> and there, and there is excellent opportunity for collective thinking on
> how to deal with platforms that are a mirror of the divisions and risks in
> societies (which we are doing!) but nothing recommended below addresses or
> mitigates  any of those risks. I am mindful that the most violent periods
> politically in Kenya predated Facebook and WhatsApp, so the notion that
> these platforms cause violence, or that taxing them would remove security
> risk is unsupported by any data whatsoever.
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere
> yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on
> whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar
> multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This
> means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope
> in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the
> government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into
> narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal
> health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair
> considering that they are *billion dollar* companies.
>
> To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the
> risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct
> position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that
> could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean
> water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem
> created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all
> innovation is good or beneficial!
>
> How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors
> use:
> 1. Estimated number of users /  downloads
> 2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages)
> 3. Valuation (funds raised)
>
> Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as
> they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting
> obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising
> business but that is under the tax radar.
>
> Signing off. Will check back later for updates.
>
> Patrick
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>
> This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can
> imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁
> I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from
> Kenya?
>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.
>
> The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because
> they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted
> benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes
> here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can
> apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position
> our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our
> government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is
> counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive
> activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in
> getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering
> taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on
> whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction
> for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these
> companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should
> their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose
> this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of
> whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.
>
> As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been
> proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like
> India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory
> messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led
> to deaths of many people.  Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to
> ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end.
> Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be
> contolled and is actively leading research in this area.
>
> The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge
> of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow?
> Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for
> harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various
> platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?
>
> Good day to all
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via
> kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>
> Morning Mr Patrick Maina,
>
> You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other
> things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such
> as free speech and privacy.
> Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months
> of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt
> to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the
> country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't
> hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and
> other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the
> internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in
> January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the
> Kenyan society. 😉
>
> I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the
> top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all
> together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a
> blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and
> lies' just like in Uganda.
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to
> subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We
> know this for a fact.
>
> So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we
> value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic
> development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free
> speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g.
> protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal
> proportion as law abiding citizens)?
>
> The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be
> impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of
> money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic
> transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any
> taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means
> that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets
> diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent
> company accountable for damage caused.
>
> Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the
> traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with
> Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that
> entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon
> Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers
> for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at
> massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because
> massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies
> governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as
> illustrated above).
>
>
> A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon
> Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations*
> because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to
> make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual
> losses!
>
> There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in
> Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement
> revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local
> businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:
>
> https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=>
>
> CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under
> the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g.
> encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.
>
> So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to
> consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level
> (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and
> thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat
> apps China-style.
>
> To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace,
> stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic
> predictability!
>
> A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding
> citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit
> basic rights in order to harm the innocent.
>
> Good day.
> Patrick.
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via
> kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>
> Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype
> in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to
> share data with the government.
>
> The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to
> study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated
> by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft,
> could be regulated.
> Read on:
> https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nation.co.ke_business_Telcos-2Dregulator-2Dseeks-2Dto-2Dmonitor-2DWhatsApp_996-2D4833020-2Dfn9u7s_index.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=cndeiTd4wVC4D6EsU4xGNLbSnmIyYUhzbfcRXK3rLjQ&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
> Githaiga, Grace
>
>
> Co-Convenor
> Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet)
> Twitter:@ggithaiga
> Tel: 254722701495
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>
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