[kictanet] Telcos regulator seeks to monitor WhatsApp
Barrack Otieno
otieno.barrack at gmail.com
Tue Nov 6 12:55:27 EAT 2018
Interesting points Mark and Ebele, by the way i am at the Africa
Internet Governance Forum in Sudan and the regulator seems to be
proposing a similar approach and encouraging African countries to come
together, i would really love to get the perspective of an operator
like Safaricom on the issue since it appears they are the ones whose
shoes are pinching.
Regards
On 11/6/18, Mark Elkins via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
> By extending this logic - then you would suggest we tax anyone using
> Gmail, or anyone hosting their web site or email services in another
> country? Gmail is also an "Over The Top" service.
>
> WhatsApp hurts telecom companies - because telecom companies (mobile
> cell and fixed wire) made money from SMS's and Voice services. It hurts
> because WhatsApp works well and is innovative - you can use it (and many
> other similar services) to send Text, Pictures, Documents, Video, Voice
> Memo's and make voice calls. What you are perhaps suggesting is all
> innovation should be taxed?
>
> Perhaps its time that the legacy telecom companies became more
> innovative themselves or simply provide the connectivity (and there is
> still lots of opportunity there). Voice and Text is just data. Data
> providers are taxed locally. Data usage is increasing so I presume Data
> companies are paying more and more tax.
>
> As to abusive use (by any message conveying system) - humans will
> continue to be "harmful" and unfortunately will choose the easiest form
> of communications in order to group together - unless they have no
> reason to do so. I've no idea how to change human nature but I guess
> working on reasons for people to not become "harmful" would be a valid
> step. Difficult.
>
>
> On 11/06/2018 09:43 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet wrote:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.
>>
>> The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because
>> they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted
>> benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes
>> here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no
>> country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically
>> colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that
>> the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is
>> taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those
>> who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a
>> united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay
>> up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is
>> also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber
>> cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the
>> companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies
>> are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their
>> revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose
>> this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of
>> whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.
>>
>> As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has
>> been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in
>> countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news
>> and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led
>> to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has
>> responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate
>> news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open
>> to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading
>> research in this area.
>>
>> The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in
>> charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences
>> that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp
>> is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of
>> government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and
>> others are used responsibly?
>>
>> Good day to all
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via
>> kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Morning Mr Patrick Maina,
>>
>> You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other
>> things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights
>> such as free speech and privacy.
>> Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10
>> months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did
>> not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this
>> tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet
>> (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users
>> of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of
>> users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic
>> transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell
>> which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉
>>
>> I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over
>> the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument
>> all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating
>> for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of
>> gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet,
>> <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke <mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling
>> (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive
>> scale. We know this for a fact.
>>
>> So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask:
>> what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability,
>> economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian,
>> unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected
>> from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious
>> defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding
>> citizens)?
>>
>> The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will
>> not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost
>> governments tons of money in maintaining internal security
>> (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to
>> existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you,
>> they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds
>> that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets
>> diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the
>> parent company accountable for damage caused.
>>
>> Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on
>> the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of
>> touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The
>> basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented
>> endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized
>> companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades
>> (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at
>> massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance*
>> because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs
>> - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing
>> local burdens as illustrated above).
>>
>>
>> A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded
>> Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and
>> *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how
>> the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary
>> reason they push for perpetual losses!
>>
>> There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue
>> earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g.
>> advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax
>> playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other
>> countries like the UK are working on:
>>
>> https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill
>>
>> CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing
>> though, under the current traditional framework due to technical
>> barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional
>> challenges.
>>
>> So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are
>> set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely
>> at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool
>> and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling
>> any gaps with copycat apps China-style.
>>
>> To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support
>> peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and
>> economic predictability!
>>
>> A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding
>> citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to
>> exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.
>>
>> Good day.
>> Patrick.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga
>> via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> <mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp
>> and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based
>> service providers to share data with the government.
>>
>> The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a
>> consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top
>> services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs
>> WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated.
>>
>> Read on:
>>
>> https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>>
>> Githaiga, Grace
>>
>>
>> Co-Convenor
>> Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet)
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>>
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>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> development.
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>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
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>
> --
> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
--
Barrack O. Otieno
+254721325277
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Skype: barrack.otieno
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