[kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook

Tue Dec 4 21:41:35 EAT 2018

On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, 18:58 Gabriel via kictanet <
kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke wrote:

> Folks,
>
> As the internet opens up to global opportunities so does it also make
> present the dark side of it.
> It’s a case of what outweighs what..... truth of the matter is, it’s hard
> (actually almost impossible) to regulate the net in a democracy that
> believes censorship of freedom of press and social rights is/are
> undemocratic.
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+gwarigi=msn.com at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> on behalf of WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 20, 2018 11:01 PM
> *To:* gwarigi at msn.com
> *Cc:* WANGARI KABIRU
> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms
> responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook
>
> (This kindly is not for FB response)
>
>
> I pick on a statement and look into a possible future of mobile money
> "
> The problem set is a platform with 2.4 billion people, posting billions of
> pieces of content. "
>
>
> One day this might be a problem from one of the FinTech firms or online
> retailers. Painted in $$$$$$ terms money transaction posted by clients or
> purchase transactions.
>
> Design thinkers, an early business opportunity with your clients.
>
>
> *Wrt the early marriages, may all girls and boys experience fullness of
> childhood!
>
>
> Be blessed.
> Regards/Wangari
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2018 20:39, "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> Then it looks like you have everything under control. :-)
>
> Hope the problems gets solved soonest for the sake of us all.
>
> Best wishes!
>
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:30:08 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <
> ebeleokobi at fb.com> wrote:
>
>
> The problem set is a platform with 2.4 billion people, posting billions of
> pieces of content. We have some proactive review, of things like child
> exploitation content, but it is really difficult to pre-review every single
> piece of content at this scale. It’s also not even what a majority of users
> want. I know that I personally, use FB a great deal, and I would not want
> that.
>
> In order to ensure that *no* bad content is posted, that is, actually,
> what would be necessary. This is actually an issue we have spent a great
> deal of time thinking about, with multiple experts, and while there are
> more ways we are identifying content, a state of no bad content ever
> posted, or a system that would enable FB itself to be aware of every single
> piece of content-this is a genuine question-how do you think that would
> work?
>
> Saying “private tech platform” doesn’t answer the question-detecting crime
> is still detecting crime/bad actors, and it’s still not clear from this
> phrase how you think this would work, irl.
>
> We pay multiple consultants and confer with thousands of rights activists,
> safety advocates, CSOs, law enforcement, etc, and it’s not apparent from
> this exchange that you are an expert in any of the topics discussed, so the
> notion that my genuine interest in your opinion amounts to a request for
> free consulting is odd.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Sawa, in-line answers below...
>
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 7:52:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <
> ebeleokobi at fb.com> wrote:
>
>
> You haven’t answered any of my questions.
>
> I have repasted, for reference-
>
> Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post,
> picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook?
> A: Are those the only options? Is that the only alternative to status-quo?
> What happened to open innovation? Ideas for better *technical* solutions
> exist, but the good ones are not free.
>
> How do you think policing works in society?
> A: Policing in FB is not analogous to policing in society. FB is a private
> tech platform.
>
> Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?
> A: pls. see above answer.
>
> How do you think actual communities work?
> A: pls. see above answer.
>
> If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people
> posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which
> is completely innocuous, work, in your view?
> A: I could tell you but that would be free consulting. :-).
>
> What is an “educating” model?
> A: Again, I can't do free consulting to billion dollar companies.
>
> FB could try an "innovation competition" to get a cheap/free brainstorm on
> the issue but I think people globally are wising up on the odds around such
> events and so the quality of ideas is going down. Probably another area
> that needs new thinking.
>
> Enjoy your evening! :-)
> Patrick.
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you
> guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested.
>
> I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It
> is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory
> business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism,
> personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized
> data and engagement.
>
> There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It
> looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid
> owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the
> problem belongs to *all of us*, because we need each other as a
> community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because
> its good for you".. but when it comes to *profits*, they revert to pure
> capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no
> free lunches!".
>
> Take ownership.
>
> Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=>
>
> Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits
>
> Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial
> crisis
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <
> ebeleokobi at fb.com> wrote:
>
>
> What is an “educating” model?
>
>
> How do you think policing works in society?
> Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?
> How do you think actual communities work?
>
> If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people
> posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which
> is completely innocuous, work, in your view?
>
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low
> levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on
> community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its
> own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that?
>
> Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its
> just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community?
>
> If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more
> complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating
> model* which is much harder to pull off.
>
> Sidenotes:
> *a.* I'm curious how FB defines "free expression".
> *b.* On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been
> sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a
> form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware
> that it is being misused for anti-social purposes?
>
> Good evening.
> Patrick.
>
> "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms,
> but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on
> Facebook.
>
> I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across
> our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am
> always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to
> report bad content into the platform."
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <
> ebeleokobi at fb.com> wrote:
>
>
> At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the
> community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report.
> This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong.
> Why would anyone **not** want the ability to report?
>
>
>
>  Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post,
> picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd
> that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model.
>
>
>
> *From: *kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> *Reply-To: *"Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT
> Policy Discussions <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> *Date: *Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM
> *To: *Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi at fb.com>
> *Cc: *"Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000 at yahoo.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms
> responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook
>
>
>
> Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues:
>
>
>
> 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers,
> enablers?
>
>
>
> 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through
> enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be
> profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose?
>
>
>
> 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here,
> such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame
> does the community share?
>
>
>
> 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will
> FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its
> informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but
> strangers in good times?
>
>
>
> 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say,
> businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are
> effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what
> extent? Who else should own the problem and why?
>
>
>
> I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could
> backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts
> of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions).
>
>
>
> Good day listers,
>
> Patrick.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via
> kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is
> posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on
> addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any
> country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'.
>
>
>
> The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took
> part in the auction.
>
>
>
> In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder
> negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need
> to protect privacy, security and human rights online.
>
>
>
> Wainaina
>
>
>
> On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <
> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
>
> Hi listers,
>
>
>
> Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who
> was auctioned on fb.
>
>
>
> It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some
> argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their
> platform.
>
>
>
> Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we
> dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why?
>
>
>
> Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa?
>
>
>
> Is it government? And just how far can the government reach?
>
>
>
> Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the  end by having an
> attitude of anything goes as long we have internet.
>
>
>
> Nice day everyone.
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
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>
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