[kictanet] On Homosexuality and Information Controls: Laws and Culture

Wed Feb 24 21:45:28 EAT 2016

@Walu, yes! Let the debate focus on ICTs. 

RgdsGrace
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:50:39 +0000
Subject: Re: [kictanet] On Homosexuality and Information Controls: Laws and Culture
From: kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
CC: jwalu at yahoo.com; kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
To: ggithaiga at hotmail.com

@Mose,
We ALL have the SAME divine references. This is what makes us human, remember?
Different cultures, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, African Traditionalist and even Atheists agree to the presence of a supreme being who inscribes what is right and what is wrong in your conscience.  It doesnt matter how many times one may want to 'erase' their conscience, human beings ALL know what is right what is wrong - by design. 
Actually there is a whole science behind all these..Its called Theology. One can actually logically to prove that what is right and what is wrong is universal. But sometimes we do not need any science..we just need examples.  
...Theft is wrong - no matter how  raw/immature, sophisticated or advanced your culture may purport to be. Even in post-Christian Europe of today, they still do not encourage stealing...though they encourage everything else in the name of freedoms/human rights etc :-)
Anyway I digress, but my point is that the Fundamental Truth does not vary according to cultures, because it was written in your heart/soul/spirit/being in the beginning. You can ran away from it (through passing man-made laws, fashion, peer pressure, etc), but deep down your mind, it will always speak to you and nag you about what is right and what is wrong.
Anyway, we may need a cup of coffee on this debate...because it may go out of ICTs and I risk spamming Listers.
walu.

       From: Mose Karanja <mosekaranja at gmail.com>
 To: Walubengo J <jwalu at yahoo.com> 
Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>; Mildred Achoch <mildandred at gmail.com>
 Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:13 PM
 Subject: Re: [kictanet] On Homosexuality and Information Controls: Laws and Culture

Walu, With all due respect to the divine references, I think what is right cannot be defined by what is ‘divine’ on so many levels top of them being that we have no common divine to ensure harmony. As Grace observed, when consensus eludes us, we refer back to the Constitution (through the Judiciary or such). The Kenyan Constitution is very clear; there is no State religion. On this matter therefore, the constitution is supreme. In reality though, cultural regimes dominate. That is where the challenge is and if the tool that is the Internet is to deliver the human rights and equality promise, then we ought to work on the repressive cultural regimes.  Moses. On Feb 24, 2016, at 4:11 PM, Walubengo J <jwalu at yahoo.com> wrote:I had a tweef (twitter fight) on this one.  I concluded and do so here again.What is legal is not always right (think Prostitution? Abortion?) .  Additionally, what is deemed illegal could infact be right (think Mau mau, Nelson Mandela aparthied struggle?, etc).In short the question of being  legal/illegal is man-made, what you and me (actually our not so reliable MPs) decide. However being Right/Wrong is divine.Sometimes the legal and divine are on the same page. Occassionally they are not.  At that point its your individual choice to side with either man-made laws or divine laws.  Mutua may have sided with the divine. He may not succeed, but we pay him to try :-)walu.        From: Mildred Achoch via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> To: jwalu at yahoo.com Cc: Mildred Achoch <mildandred at gmail.com>; Mose Karanja <mosekaranja at gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [kictanet] On homosexuality and Information Controls: Laws and	Culture   Thank you Moses, Grace et al. I have learned a lot today!On Wednesday, February 24, 2016, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:Moses, thank you for reminding us of our duty towards a more inclusive society. KFCB "banned" the song as "homosexuality is illegal". Infact, the proximate videos on YouTube have (non homosexual) content that many Kenyan parents would rate "after high school age" but these are not a target of the ban. The video is opportune as it forces us to start this conversation. The legality of homosexuality is a question that has already been before the courts in Petition No 440 of 2012 available here http://kenyalaw.org/caselaw/cases/view/108412/. In this case, the government had declined to register an organisation for gay rights and the organisation went to court seeking to protect their rights. While interpreting sections 162, 163 and 165 of the Penal Code, the court held as follows:“A reading of the above provisions indicates that the Penal Code does not criminalise homosexuality, or the state of being homosexual, but only certain sexual acts“against the order of nature.”. That the State does not set out to prosecute people who confess to be lesbians and homosexuals in this country is a clear manifestation that such sexual orientation is not necessarily criminalised. What is deemed to be criminal under the above provision of the Penal Code is certain sexual conduct “against the order of nature”, but the provision does not define what the “order of nature” is.”@Mildred, on your second question, I would hold that if we want to police content where there is no consensus on the illegality of the content, let it be through a judicial process. Regards, 2016-02-24 14:13 GMT+03:00 Barrack Otieno via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>:Hi Moses,

It goes back to our value systems as a Nation, what is considered
moral offline should be considered moral online and vice versa. I
think the mandate of the Kenya Film Classification Board is very clear
and is based on our constitution and should be debated against that.

The Internet is just a tool even though we try to ascribe a lot of
fanciness to it, it can be used to build or to destroy communities and
nations. It is upon us to decide whether we want to hide under
philosophical arguments or strengthen the value systems in our society
which will in turn strengthen the very society we live in, we cannot
hide our heads in the sand and accept everything that comes our way.

Over the weekend my car was hit while stationary in a traffic jam by a
Matatu being driven by 'cool' young men. They bullied me to make way
for their vehicle since they were in a hurry, the worst part is they
never stopped to apologize even after damaging my car, fellow Kenyans
on the road found this unacceptable and  asked me to pursue the young
men and have a word with them, i succeed in blocking them and found
myself in a situation i did not anticipate. The driver was a childhood
friend totally intoxicated and indulging in the same drug abuse as he
was driving carrying 33 passengers, i will not even talk about the
blaring music whose content we are all aware of. To make it worse the
drove through two police checks with approximately seven policemen.

I suppose that is the Kenya we want, but we need to pose and reflect
on our Social Fabric.

Regards

On 2/24/16, Mose Karanja via kictanet <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
> Hello listers,
>
> The Internet has been a great platform for sexual minorities and those who
> work to defend their rights for organization, support groups and as safe
> haven from hostile offline environments. The video clip in question was
> uploaded, not sold on the streets of Nairobi, in part because the Internet
> is a safer platform for the LGBTQ community.
>
> My thinking on this is not even a question of legality but rather about the
> cultural expectations we have in our country on this topic. If tomorrow the
> LGBTQ community successfully lodged a constitutional case on the illegality
> of the clauses incriminating their very identity, the people they live with
> in their neighbourhoods, schools, churches and mosques would not accept them
> overnight. It will take time and immense effort to build a critical mass who
> take our brothers and sisters who are sexual minorities as human beings. As
> human rights defenders, out role should then be to keep the Internet as that
> safe haven for the LGBTQ.
>
> Moses.
>
>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 12:23 PM, kictanet-request at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> wrote:
>>
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>> than "Re: Contents of kictanet digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: Films board gives Google a week to take down gay song
>>      video - Corporate News (Mildred Achoch)
>>   2. Re: Films board gives Google a week to take down gay song
>>      video - Corporate News (simiyu mse)
>>
>> From: Mildred Achoch <mildandred at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Films board gives Google a week to take down gay
>> song video - Corporate News
>> Date: February 24, 2016 at 11:59:52 AM EAT
>> To: simiyu mse <kensimiyu at gmail.com>
>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>>
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> Let me ask some questions in an attempt to answer your question (and at
>> the risk of opening a can of worms)
>>
>> 1. Note: I don't know the details of the laws regarding homosexuality in
>> Kenya. My question is: in Kenya, is it illegal to practice homosexuality
>> or is it illegal to BE a homosexual?
>>
>> 2. Related to the above question, as an artist/creative/content producer
>> whose role in society is to hold up a mirror using my art, is it illegal
>> to portray what is already happening in society? Crime is illegal yet
>> Nairobi Halflife was not banned. :-)
>>
>> It goes back to the muddy issue of morality. It seems in Kenya, some
>> crimes are deemed more hazardous than others and these skewed views
>> trickle down to censorship parameters.
>>
>> The issue of obeying the laws of the land is also muddy, especially in
>> this age of globalization. Is my online TV channel, which is available
>> only on the Internet, hosted by a foreign country and with majority of
>> viewers being non-Kenyans, subject to the laws of Kenya (only)?
>>
>> Check out the Rock 'n' roll film festival, Kenya TV Channel!
>> http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com
>> <http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com/>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 9:31 AM, simiyu mse <kensimiyu at gmail.com
>> <mailto:kensimiyu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hello Mildred.
>>
>> Excellent points and just as you said, if you support the infringement of
>> one's right then its only a matter of time before the axe is trained on
>> yours.
>>
>> However, there is the element of promoting something that is illegal.
>> Homosexuality is currently illegal in the country. The morality angle may
>> be abit vague based on it's subjective nature but in terms of legality it
>> is as clear as night and day.
>>
>> Whats your take on the matter being an online media stakeholder?
>>
>> Kind regards.
>>
>> ./ken
>>
>> The major problem is that there is no clear line as to what "morality" is.
>> Each individual, each government has their take on what is moral. So who's
>> right is it to say what is right and what is wrong? I do my best to
>> support the freedom of even those whose opinions I do not agree with.
>> Because when someone else's freedom is infringed upon then it's just a
>> matter of time before my freedom is also infringed upon.
>>
>> My very personal and biased answers to the questions asked:
>>
>> 1. Should we allow content online that we wouldn't even think about
>> showing in our sitting rooms and public places?
>>
>> In one word: yes. On the internet, the individual has more freedom to
>> "switch off" what they don't want to view. Plus there are ways in which
>> content providers can place restrictions so that minors etc cannot have
>> access to controversial content. This is very personal to me because I
>> currently have an online TV channel that shows content (rock music videos)
>> that would normally not be shown on Kenyan TV.
>>
>> 2. Should the government be the morality cop when we as parents fail to do
>> our duty?
>>
>> In one word: no. The answer to this question is in the question :-)
>> Parents/Caregivers need to do their duty.
>>
>> 3. Where does third party liability start and stop? There are precedents
>> here by the way where Google has actually taken down graphic Al-Shabaab
>> videos and the US Government ordering Google to take down the video -
>> Innocence of Muslims.
>>
>> I have never watched nor plan to ever watch graphic Al-Shabaab videos but
>> I still don't think they should have been taken down. Censorship is
>> censorship. Today it will be graphic Al-Shabaab videos, tomorrow it will
>> be "graphic" rock 'n' roll videos. Even graphic videos have a story to
>> tell, a lesson to teach, a warning to give.
>>
>> Just my two cents :-)
>>
>> Check out the Rock 'n' roll film festival, Kenya TV Channel!
>> http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com
>> <http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com/>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Ali Hussein via kictanet
>> <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke <mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>>
>> wrote:
>> Listers
>>
>> This may be of interest.
>>
>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Films-board-gives-Google-a-week-to-take-down-gay-song-video/-/539550/3089994/-/v8r0e2z/-/
>> <http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Films-board-gives-Google-a-week-to-take-down-gay-song-video/-/539550/3089994/-/v8r0e2z/-/index.html>index.html
>> <http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Films-board-gives-Google-a-week-to-take-down-gay-song-video/-/539550/3089994/-/v8r0e2z/-/index.html>
>> It has become increasingly important for we as a nation to define our
>> parameters when it comes to content.
>>
>> 1. Should we allow content online that we wouldn't even think about
>> showing in our sitting rooms and public places?
>>
>> 2. Should the government be the morality cop when we as parents fail to do
>> our duty?
>>
>> 3. Where does third party liability start and stop? There are precedents
>> here by the way where Google has actually taken down graphic Al-Shabaab
>> videos and the US Government ordering Google to take down the video -
>> Innocence of Muslims.
>>
>> I suspect there's no easy answer to these pressing issues.
>>
>> Net Neutrality  is becoming an issue that needs our attention - and
>> quickly.
>>
>> Ali Hussein
>> Tel: +254 713 601113
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: simiyu mse <kensimiyu at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Films board gives Google a week to take down gay
>> song video - Corporate News
>> Date: February 24, 2016 at 9:31:54 AM EAT
>> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>>
>>
>> Hello Mildred.
>>
>> Excellent points and just as you said, if you support the infringement of
>> one's right then its only a matter of time before the axe is trained on
>> yours.
>>
>> However, there is the element of promoting something that is illegal.
>> Homosexuality is currently illegal in the country. The morality angle may
>> be abit vague based on it's subjective nature but in terms of legality it
>> is as clear as night and day.
>>
>> Whats your take on the matter being an online media stakeholder?
>>
>> Kind regards.
>>
>> ./ken
>>
>> The major problem is that there is no clear line as to what "morality" is.
>> Each individual, each government has their take on what is moral. So who's
>> right is it to say what is right and what is wrong? I do my best to
>> support the freedom of even those whose opinions I do not agree with.
>> Because when someone else's freedom is infringed upon then it's just a
>> matter of time before my freedom is also infringed upon.
>>
>> My very personal and biased answers to the questions asked:
>>
>> 1. Should we allow content online that we wouldn't even think about
>> showing in our sitting rooms and public places?
>>
>> In one word: yes. On the internet, the individual has more freedom to
>> "switch off" what they don't want to view. Plus there are ways in which
>> content providers can place restrictions so that minors etc cannot have
>> access to controversial content. This is very personal to me because I
>> currently have an online TV channel that shows content (rock music videos)
>> that would normally not be shown on Kenyan TV.
>>
>> 2. Should the government be the morality cop when we as parents fail to do
>> our duty?
>>
>> In one word: no. The answer to this question is in the question :-)
>> Parents/Caregivers need to do their duty.
>>
>> 3. Where does third party liability start and stop? There are precedents
>> here by the way where Google has actually taken down graphic Al-Shabaab
>> videos and the US Government ordering Google to take down the video -
>> Innocence of Muslims.
>>
>> I have never watched nor plan to ever watch graphic Al-Shabaab videos but
>> I still don't think they should have been taken down. Censorship is
>> censorship. Today it will be graphic Al-Shabaab videos, tomorrow it will
>> be "graphic" rock 'n' roll videos. Even graphic videos have a story to
>> tell, a lesson to teach, a warning to give.
>>
>> Just my two cents :-)
>>
>> Check out the Rock 'n' roll film festival, Kenya TV Channel!
>> http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com
>> <http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com/>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Ali Hussein via kictanet
>> <kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke <mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>>
>> wrote:
>> Listers
>>
>> This may be of interest.
>>
>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Films-board-gives-Google-a-week-to-take-down-gay-song-video/-/539550/3089994/-/v8r0e2z/-/
>> <http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Films-board-gives-Google-a-week-to-take-down-gay-song-video/-/539550/3089994/-/v8r0e2z/-/index.html>index.html
>> <http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Films-board-gives-Google-a-week-to-take-down-gay-song-video/-/539550/3089994/-/v8r0e2z/-/index.html>
>> It has become increasingly important for we as a nation to define our
>> parameters when it comes to content.
>>
>> 1. Should we allow content online that we wouldn't even think about
>> showing in our sitting rooms and public places?
>>
>> 2. Should the government be the morality cop when we as parents fail to do
>> our duty?
>>
>> 3. Where does third party liability start and stop? There are precedents
>> here by the way where Google has actually taken down graphic Al-Shabaab
>> videos and the US Government ordering Google to take down the video -
>> Innocence of Muslims.
>>
>> I suspect there's no easy answer to these pressing issues.
>>
>> Net Neutrality  is becoming an issue that needs our attention - and
>> quickly.
>>
>> Ali Hussein
>> Tel: +254 713 601113
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kictanet mailing list
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke <mailto:kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> <https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet>
>>
>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mildandred%40gmail.com
>> <https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mildandred%40gmail.com>
>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kictanet mailing list
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>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
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>> <https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kensimiyu%40gmail.com>
>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kictanet mailing list
>> kictanet at lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>
> ---
> Moses Karanja | @Mose_Karanja <https://twitter.com/Mose_Karanja> | PGP:
> 0x1529552F
> <https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=index&fingerprint=on&search=0x1529552F>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Barrack O. Otieno
+254721325277
+254733206359
Skype: barrack.otieno

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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-- Check out the Rock 'n' roll film festival, Kenya TV Channel! http://kenyarockfilmfestivaljournal.blogspot.com_______________________________________________kictanet mailing listkictanet at lists.kictanet.or.kehttps://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanetUnsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jwalu%40yahoo.comThe Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.    
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. 		 	   		  
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